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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
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Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.10.2013 , 01:03 PM | #321
Quote: Originally Posted by Alorithan View Post
Hmm...I gotta say I'm actually for it as a straight male, but as a straight male I don't like the idea of having the option for my character if that makes sense, because I don't feel he swings that way. Honestly what I think they should have done is make romances an optional setting. For instance, if you turned off romance of any kind, anytime there was a flirt option it would just be a different standard option instead. But you could do that with either same sex or opposite sex. That way someone playing a straight character wouldn't see that his character potentially wants to hit on those of the same sex, or vice versa even. Or you could leave on both or turn both off. It's too late for that now as it would require new voiceovers for tons of options and the like, but on the implementation of same sex I feel it's something that could be done since it hasn't been implemented yet.
That's toggle-talk, which has been ruled discriminatory by the mods (though I get that's probably not what you're intending to convey). Remember the dialogue options (all of them, not just the flirt options) are optional, so you can simply avoid selecting anything that might initiate a romance with the same gender as the character you're playing.

Put another way, as a straight male you probably don't have a habit of going up to men and flirting with them. You could, nothing physically prevents you from doing so, but you don't. Same deal in-game. You could (well, in theory, once the options are implemented) but you choose not to.
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Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.10.2013 , 01:16 PM | #322
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I see what you're saying, but to be fair, it's not really something they have to do [telling us how far they're planning to go with SGR], and for their part, likely a good way to keep a few players continuing to subscribe and possibly spend money on the cash shop.
I agree they're under no literal obligation to do so but it feels dishonest. Lying by omission, sort of thing. Letting someone believe something you know isn't true just to retain their interest is leading them on and I deeply hope that's not happening in this case.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I'd like some SGR content equal to the OGR romance companion storylines, though admittedly I'm not the adamant one who needs it for every class, just because.
I do. I think it should be equal for all classes. Not just because but due to the fact that the companions aren't real and it's far more fair to allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy the same in-class romances no matter what class they prefer to play.

The companion NPCs aren't real people with predetermined preferences, they're fictional characters written to perform functions within the story (just as the PCs are, though the dialogue wheel gives flexibility to their functionality). I see no justification for saying 'We're not going to let Jedi Consulars (or whatever) pursue a same sex relationship because it wouldn't make sense given the companions.' Write in new companions, rewrite existing companions, whatever needs to be done. That's what writers do, it's called revision. If they include relationships at all (which they already have) they should do it for all classes (as they have) for both OGRAs and SGRAs (which, as we know, they haven't).

I actually like the way the companion romances are done (though I would have liked if the romance dialogue were more prevalent after initiated - as well as a few other points). I especially like the way you can play any class and you're not barred from pursuing a relationship of some kind, even if doing so is deeply frowned upon given the context (ie. Jedi). The biggest problem with it that I see is that it's strictly and exclusively heterosexual. They were so close - if they'd included SGRAs I'd have been a happy camper.

But they didn't and all the ifs in the world won't change that.
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Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
03.10.2013 , 01:36 PM | #323
I've always figured that they should just add an account unlock for two possible same gender-romance characters, one male and one female. Available when you get your ship. Then they don't have to redo the existing dialogue for the other companions. They could even come up with a story about them being a stowaway that you just find there.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
03.10.2013 , 02:05 PM | #324
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
I've always figured that they should just add an account unlock for two possible same gender-romance characters, one male and one female. Available when you get your ship. Then they don't have to redo the existing dialogue for the other companions. They could even come up with a story about them being a stowaway that you just find there.
I know why you have that idea and while it could be done quite well, I think it would too easily lend itself to an abusive power dynamic. I'm not saying it shouldn't be ruled out, but the story start itself seems, to me, to be a bit problematic.

Also, how would those post-50 get the companion? For some classes this doesn't make sense - my Phantom would have far better security than that, but the Mantis (BH ship?) seems like a leaky rust-bucket.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.10.2013 , 04:48 PM | #325
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
I agree they're under no literal obligation to do so but it feels dishonest. Lying by omission, sort of thing. Letting someone believe something you know isn't true just to retain their interest is leading them on and I deeply hope that's not happening in this case.



I do. I think it should be equal for all classes. Not just because but due to the fact that the companions aren't real and it's far more fair to allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy the same in-class romances no matter what class they prefer to play.

The companion NPCs aren't real people with predetermined preferences, they're fictional characters written to perform functions within the story (just as the PCs are, though the dialogue wheel gives flexibility to their functionality). I see no justification for saying 'We're not going to let Jedi Consulars (or whatever) pursue a same sex relationship because it wouldn't make sense given the companions.' Write in new companions, rewrite existing companions, whatever needs to be done. That's what writers do, it's called revision. If they include relationships at all (which they already have) they should do it for all classes (as they have) for both OGRAs and SGRAs (which, as we know, they haven't).

I actually like the way the companion romances are done (though I would have liked if the romance dialogue were more prevalent after initiated - as well as a few other points). I especially like the way you can play any class and you're not barred from pursuing a relationship of some kind, even if doing so is deeply frowned upon given the context (ie. Jedi). The biggest problem with it that I see is that it's strictly and exclusively heterosexual. They were so close - if they'd included SGRAs I'd have been a happy camper.

But they didn't and all the ifs in the world won't change that.
I realize they;re fictional, but I also figure they didn't write the character and go "Oh. They're any way." I know when I write, I don't think to myself "This character can be anything and everything." at least for the more main characters, which the companions are.

That said, I'm sure there were some the writers envisioned in whatever category.

As for lying by omission, haven't seen that. They said SGR will come. They said it wouldn't be companions. So now it's just a matter of...

1) flirt options for every character you run across?
2) flirt options for select SGR?
3) flirt options just for SGR?
4) flirt options for SGR and OGR for specific NPCs?

Maybe Makeb's entire population is made up of clones who are only into SGR, and hence why they started cloning to reproduce!

Best bet would seem to be, expect just little flirt options with an NPC, and maybe get lucky with a full blown storyline romance that will end, you'll get a mail in the mailbox saying they miss you, and never hear from them again.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.10.2013 , 09:39 PM | #326
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I realize they;re fictional, but I also figure they didn't write the character and go "Oh. They're any way." I know when I write, I don't think to myself "This character can be anything and everything." at least for the more main characters, which the companions are.

That said, I'm sure there were some the writers envisioned in whatever category.
That's possible but also irrelevant. These characters are not set in stone. They're under the writers' control. Like I said, revision. Whether Kaiden in ME was always meant to be bi or whether they revised his character to add that in later is a good example: Kaiden is a character. They decided to make same sex options available for him in ME3. They did. End of story. There's no reason at all they can't do that for other characters. You might not think 'this character can be anything and everything' but not only is that not even what I was insinuating the SWTOR writers are doing or should do (which I suspect you know damn well), you do have absolute control, as a writer, of what that character becomes.

Saying, 'We can't do that now as is doesn't fit and it's too late to add it in' is bollocks. If they don't, as writers, want to add it into existing characters then that's another matter, but if that's the case then write in new characters.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
As for lying by omission, haven't seen that. They said SGR will come. They said it wouldn't be companions. So now it's just a matter of...
I'm talking about the year-long stretch before they gave us any real information. I'm talking about their intentions for the 'further SGRA content' they hinted at for post-Makeb. I'm not talking exclusively about the Makeb content so yes, I'm afraid that if they do intend to restrict SGR content to non-companion NPCs then they have indeed been leading us on.

Thing is, I believe the future SGR content will include companions. It's one of the main reasons I'm still here.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Maybe Makeb's entire population is made up of clones who are only into SGR, and hence why they started cloning to reproduce!
That would be absolutely abysmal, as decisions go. That would be a public relations nightmare and possibly one of the worst things they could do for their reputation amongst LGBT and allies. A world full of same-sex people who do cloning because otherwise they'll die out? No other LGBT content anywhere in the galaxy? The unspoken insinuation that this is where all the LGBT people belong? That's right up there with 'ship all the gays off to and island and let them gay each other out of existence'.

No, I don't think they'd do that. I think it'll be more natural and more subtle. Like some of the existing characters - you meet them in the course of a mission, you hit it off, you flirt, you fade to black. The only difference is that some boys will be boy-flirtable and some girls will be girl-flirtable.
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.10.2013 , 09:45 PM | #327
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
That's possible but also irrelevant. These characters are not set in stone. They're under the writers' control. Like I said, revision. Whether Kaiden in ME was always meant to be bi or whether they revised his character to add that in later is a good example: Kaiden is a character. They decided to make same sex options available for him in ME3. They did. End of story. There's no reason at all they can't do that for other characters. You might not think 'this character can be anything and everything' but not only is that not even what I was insinuating the SWTOR writers are doing or should do (which I suspect you know damn well), you do have absolute control, as a writer, of what that character becomes.

Saying, 'We can't do that now as is doesn't fit and it's too late to add it in' is bollocks. If they don't, as writers, want to add it into existing characters then that's another matter, but if that's the case then write in new characters.



I'm talking about the year-long stretch before they gave us any real information. I'm talking about their intentions for the 'further SGRA content' they hinted at for post-Makeb. I'm not talking exclusively about the Makeb content so yes, I'm afraid that if they do intend to restrict SGR content to non-companion NPCs then they have indeed been leading us on.

Thing is, I believe the future SGR content will include companions. It's one of the main reasons I'm still here.



That would be absolutely abysmal, as decisions go. That would be a public relations nightmare and possibly one of the worst things they could do for their reputation amongst LGBT and allies. A world full of same-sex people who do cloning because otherwise they'll die out? No other LGBT content anywhere in the galaxy? The unspoken insinuation that this is where all the LGBT people belong? That's right up there with 'ship all the gays off to and island and let them gay each other out of existence'.

No, I don't think they'd do that. I think it'll be more natural and more subtle. Like some of the existing characters - you meet them in the course of a mission, you hit it off, you flirt, you fade to black. The only difference is that some boys will be boy-flirtable and some girls will be girl-flirtable.
Changing characters never goes over well. People hate retcons.

As for the last bit, I just threw that out there as a possibility as I havent seen any info on Makeb, I highly doubt they're going that route, but I will have to disagree with you. It doesn't insinuate that's where all the LGBT people belong. That's stretching the idea to purposely find a negative for the idea.

What it is, is a background for a planet. I believe Star Trek has a planet similar to that, except they were ambigious, with the idea of gender washed out of them, but a few of them would lean towards male or female, and then have it basically brain-washed out of them.

JediMB's Avatar


JediMB
03.11.2013 , 05:30 AM | #328
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Changing characters never goes over well. People hate retcons..
People hate retcons. Except when they like/love them.

Some people hate that Tali and Garrus are romance options. Others love it.

The former have the option to simply not engage in the content.
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LadyDrusilla's Avatar


LadyDrusilla
03.11.2013 , 05:49 AM | #329
Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
TOR was reported to have sold 2 million copies of the game when it came out but went down to 200k-500k subs in the months after that. That's what I meant when I said 'tanked'.
But it didn't. After 6 months it was still at 1.3m and only sunk to 'well over 500k' ten months after launch.
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Lent_San's Avatar


Lent_San
03.11.2013 , 06:42 AM | #330
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
That's possible but also irrelevant. These characters are not set in stone. They're under the writers' control. Like I said, revision. Whether Kaiden in ME was always meant to be bi or whether they revised his character to add that in later is a good example: Kaiden is a character. They decided to make same sex options available for him in ME3. They did. End of story. There's no reason at all they can't do that for other characters. You might not think 'this character can be anything and everything' but not only is that not even what I was insinuating the SWTOR writers are doing or should do (which I suspect you know damn well), you do have absolute control, as a writer, of what that character becomes.

Saying, 'We can't do that now as is doesn't fit and it's too late to add it in' is bollocks. If they don't, as writers, want to add it into existing characters then that's another matter, but if that's the case then write in new characters.
Indeed. There's a difference between writing characters for fiction and writing characters for games. Characters in (RPG) games are "playable" which in itself means that a certain part or their personality is determined by the player through choices the player makes (dialogue wheel etc.) while in fiction there's no such thing. You can't just go and skip a paragraph. In fiction, a character is predetermined while in games, you'll have to give him/her different personality traits from the get-go, those the player can chose from. So when writers claim they can't make a character adapt to certain situations in different ways they're either dishonest with themselves or maybe should be writing fiction instead where no such thing is demanded.

Kaidan is a good example. I played the mShep/Kaidan romance and there was never a doubt in my mind that this romance is working. I've read comments of other players though who said they envisioned Shep and Kaidan to be just buddies. Both of the factions are right because both of us played different versions of Kaidan, through the choices we made.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
I'm talking about the year-long stretch before they gave us any real information. I'm talking about their intentions for the 'further SGRA content' they hinted at for post-Makeb. I'm not talking exclusively about the Makeb content so yes, I'm afraid that if they do intend to restrict SGR content to non-companion NPCs then they have indeed been leading us on.
Thing is, I believe the future SGR content will include companions. It's one of the main reasons I'm still here.
I fully agree. I'm expection SGR romances to be implemented eventually. If they're not coming, flirts aren't gonna do it for me.

Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
People hate retcons. Except when they like/love them.
Some people hate that Tali and Garrus are romance options. Others love it.
The former have the option to simply not engage in the content.
True.

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyDrusilla View Post
But it didn't. After 6 months it was still at 1.3m and only sunk to 'well over 500k' ten months after launch.
I have read different numbers. I also read they needed around 2m subs to operate a healthy game so whatever the numbers exactly were, they were too low and continuously sinking, at least during the first few months.