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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.09.2013 , 07:58 AM | #261
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

And finally concerning powerbases, Traya has the assets of Nihilus and Sion because they were under her direct command and therefore their assets were her assets. The Ravager, the Sith fleet, the assassins etc. they all belonged to her as the Executor belongs to Sidious. However this does not include things that came into their ownership post-betrayal e.g. the Tomb of Freedon Nadd, war beasts, Vaklu, etc.
This is not really true. The group was called the Sith Triumvirate. A triumvirate is a government co-ruled by three heads of state. Each three of these had there own powerbases, agendas, and schemes. In fact, a Kaggath could be held between the members of this triumvirate. Traya was not "in direct control". The others cooperated with her and her plans, but as seen with their betrayal, they obviously were able to resist her command. Notice that its a betrayal, not a mutiny. Therefor Traya should only have her powerbase, or the forces of Malachor V.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.09.2013 , 08:14 AM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Force pikes are vibro-edged weapons. Their combat power settings can cut through flesh, bone, and thin durasteel with ease. I doubt the exoskeletons of the Gand will prove very resilient to these weapons, although the frames of the HK-50 droids might hold up a little better.

Furthermore, the Assassins are hardly the only Sith forces around. There are also the acolytes, apprentices, and Sith Lords at the Trayus Academy who will absolutely devastate any invading forces at close range.

Also, why would the mercenaries be "able to do that to much greater effect"? The Exile was a Jedi, with heightened senses due to the Force. Likely her perceptions were stronger than those of Trandoshans or Gand, or perhaps roughly equivalent. So the stealth skills of the Assassins would still be quite dangerous to G0-T0's forces.
True, but Gand are small and maneuverable and therefore more able to avoid full-on blows, a glancing blow is likely to do little damage. Also, the double-bladed weapon has several exploitable weaknesses, amplified by the fact that the stun module is at the tip of the weapon.

  • It is difficult to bring to bear in close-combat conditions, and as the stun module is only at the tip and it possess and large hilt it is extremely vulnerable to the Gand 'piercing touch' - basically a high-powered punch that will easily break apart a force pike and slam into squishy assassin flesh. Trandoshans have similar capabilities, slap the pike away with those powerful arms then lift the assassin up high and crack!

  • The defensive capabilities of the weapon are rendered further useless by the fact that they are unable to deflect blaster fire as a lightsaber would be. If their opponents can make some distance, the assassins are extremely vulnerable.

So basically if the element of surprise fails, the assassins leave themselves vulnerable in both close-combat and long range. And the heightened sense of Gand, Trandoshans and HK-50's is likely to somewhat negate those stealth capabilities. That advantage can be removed entirely if G0-T0 gets his hands on some tech that deactivates stealth fields, like we see on multiple occasions in SWTOR e.g. on Balmorra. And as he has unlimited assess to the black market this is a high possibility.

However like you said, the real Sith pose a considerable threat. However if G0-T0 has his HKs he's got an edge against them, sonic screamers, flamethrowers, carbonite projectors, cluster rockets etc. will break their concentration and leave them vulnerable to attack from his other forces.

Lets also remember that the attack on the academy only needs to be a distraction while the droids get the MSG back online and reactivate it.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.09.2013 , 08:25 AM | #263
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
This is not really true. The group was called the Sith Triumvirate. A triumvirate is a government co-ruled by three heads of state. Each three of these had there own powerbases, agendas, and schemes. In fact, a Kaggath could be held between the members of this triumvirate. Traya was not "in direct control". The others cooperated with her and her plans, but as seen with their betrayal, they obviously were able to resist her command. Notice that its a betrayal, not a mutiny. Therefor Traya should only have her powerbase, or the forces of Malachor V.
Traya was the de facto leader and master of both Sion and Nihilus, they both bent to her will, she was recognised as leader by the forces on Malachor V and the remaining Sith Lords out there, due to her being the former master of Darth Revan, this is made absolutely clear in the KotOR CG, she IS the leading Dark Lord of the Triumvirate.
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.09.2013 , 08:38 AM | #264
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
This is not really true. The group was called the Sith Triumvirate. A triumvirate is a government co-ruled by three heads of state. Each three of these had there own powerbases, agendas, and schemes. In fact, a Kaggath could be held between the members of this triumvirate. Traya was not "in direct control". The others cooperated with her and her plans, but as seen with their betrayal, they obviously were able to resist her command. Notice that its a betrayal, not a mutiny. Therefor Traya should only have her powerbase, or the forces of Malachor V.
Sion and Nihilus were her apprentices, so she was effectively leader of the triumvirate, although only to a certain extent. Nor did they really have individual powerbase, it was all one, they all used different parts of it and its almost impossible to divide it into clear chunks.

Yes Traya was a co-ruler, but ultimately they were all 'Heads of State' and therefore the powerbase belonged to all of them equally, if not Traya that little bit more. Although ultimately it was Traya that told them what to do, else they wouldn't have usurped her to follow their own agenda. And where does it say that Sion and Nihilus 'betrayed' her? Not that that has much bearing, 'betrayal' was something of a buzz word concerning Traya.

But anyway, its impossible to have a fleet in orbit around Malachor V because of its sheer gravitational pull. Granted it is not strong as when the MSG was activated but nonetheless any large ship entering its orbit will be pulled in and crash. And that's before navigating web of debris surrounding it.

Granted a fleet could be placed at a distance from the planet, and deploy gravitation weapons, but that's not really going to have much effect. G0-T0 fleet is heading to the planet, so they can't really be pulled out of hyperspace as the drop out at that point anyway. And even if they are the ships won't detect them because they will be stealthed.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.09.2013 , 09:30 AM | #265
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
True, but Gand are small and maneuverable and therefore more able to avoid full-on blows, a glancing blow is likely to do little damage. Also, the double-bladed weapon has several exploitable weaknesses, amplified by the fact that the stun module is at the tip of the weapon.
  • It is difficult to bring to bear in close-combat conditions, and as the stun module is only at the tip and it possess and large hilt it is extremely vulnerable to the Gand 'piercing touch' - basically a high-powered punch that will easily break apart a force pike and slam into squishy assassin flesh. Trandoshans have similar capabilities, slap the pike away with those powerful arms then lift the assassin up high and crack!
This is an incredibly illogical statement. The Gand do not have a "piercing touch", they just have chitinous fingers which can be used as a stabbing implement. If you're suggesting that they will punch the force pikes apart, you clearly have no idea how close quarters fighting tends to work.

The stun module comprises the top portion of the pike, thus giving the user reach and distance. They can be further from their enemy while still murdering him to pieces with the powered end of the Force pike. As for the Trandos "slapping" the pikes away, that is equally ridiculous. Unless these assassins forget everything they know about killing, they'll be stabbing the Trandos with the pikes. You don't exactly "slap away" a high powered force pike without being shocked into a gibbering pile of spasmodic flesh.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
  • The defensive capabilities of the weapon are rendered further useless by the fact that they are unable to deflect blaster fire as a lightsaber would be. If their opponents can make some distance, the assassins are extremely vulnerable.
In the hallways and corridors of the academy, or in the twisting passageways of Malachor's surface, the stealthed assassins would have a fairly easy time moving in close. Of course, the assassins will be moving under cover fire from Sith Troopers and Commandos, and there will be lightsaber wielding Sith protecting those troopers. So those vaunted senses of the mercenaries will not be quite so useful in the chaotic din of battle, making it quite simple for assassins to sneak in and wreak havoc among G0-T0's forces during any engagement.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
However like you said, the real Sith pose a considerable threat. However if G0-T0 has his HKs he's got an edge against them, sonic screamers, flamethrowers, carbonite projectors, cluster rockets etc. will break their concentration and leave them vulnerable to attack from his other forces.
Most of those weapons, while effective in individual engagements, have the tendency to also hit your own people if you're not careful. So while they will have weapons which are useful against lightsaber wielding adversaries, there are also the conventional Sith forces to contend with, who will happily blast the HK-50 droids to pieces with assault carbines, grenades, and repeating blasters.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Lets also remember that the attack on the academy only needs to be a distraction while the droids get the MSG back online and reactivate it.
Assuming it hasn't been collapsed, sabotaged, or completely destroyed by Traya's forces. If she intends to remain on Malachor V, it would be a logical step to render the MSG inoperable. Or better yet, booby-trap it to detonate or destroy the people trying to activate it. Then follow up with a quick response force to finish off those who survived.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But anyway, its impossible to have a fleet in orbit around Malachor V because of its sheer gravitational pull. Granted it is not strong as when the MSG was activated but nonetheless any large ship entering its orbit will be pulled in and crash. And that's before navigating web of debris surrounding it.

Granted a fleet could be placed at a distance from the planet, and deploy gravitation weapons, but that's not really going to have much effect. G0-T0 fleet is heading to the planet, so they can't really be pulled out of hyperspace as the drop out at that point anyway. And even if they are the ships won't detect them because they will be stealthed.
Stealth technology is not infallible. In fact, it might be completely useless for this operation.
Quote:
The hibridium model cloaking device's worst drawback was perhaps the "double-blind" nature of the cloaking shield, which also blocked the host ship's scanners and communication systems. Crews and passengers on cloaked ships were unable to peer beyond the cloak's shroud. Since visual navigation was impossible, any other form of navigation could only be exercised by preprogramming astrogation routes. The vessel was thus effectively isolated from the rest of the galaxy. Communications, combat operations, and sensor sweeps could only occur when the cloaking field was lowered or disabled. The cloaking device did nothing to impair senses dependent on the Force, however, and trained Force users could detect even cloaked ships in battle with ease.
~Cloaking device entry on Wookiepedia
So not only can the Sith force users easily detect the ships coming out of hyperspace, but they can deploy gravity generators and warships along the hyperspace lanes leading to Malachor, thus pulling G0-T0's ships unexpectedly out of hyperspace. They might not even have time to activate their stealth generators before being destroyed.
(For the record, this tactic is the space-variant of a basic naval operation called interdiction. It's been a staple of naval forces since the Peloponnesians plied the Mediterranean Sea in galleys.)

Furthermore, how would G0-T0's mercenaries navigate their way to Malachor while cloaked? There are no programmed routes, and only an exceptionally skilled pilot or droid could manually fly down to the surface. That sure isn't happening while they're stealthed.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.09.2013 , 12:52 PM | #266
Concerning attacking the Trayus Academy, firstly the battle by no means has to occur inside the Academy. The best tactic will to be set up a 'blockade' in the large open space before the entrance. And then cause some ruckus to draw them out. This gives them an advantage as any Sith venturing out of the Academy will have to do so through a single small entrance, and will walk straight into awaiting blaster fire. This also gives the attackers the advantage of range, putting the Sith at a disadvantage. It will also give the inhabitants the false illusion they are attempting to lay siege to the Academy and preventing anyone from reinforcing the MSG. And lets remember if G0-T0 gets hold of some anti-stealth tech then the stealth generators will become useless, so they cannot sneak behind enemy lines.

So instantly the Sith lose the advantage of close-quarters combat, in order to bring their weapons to bear they have to get up close. Sure they have Sith Commandos with blasters and grenades. But they'll be going up against mercenaries, assassins and droids with the best tech G0-T0 can outfit them with. We're talking:

  • Stealth generators so they can get in close and avoid detection en route to the academy.
  • Disruptor rifles that pack enough punch to disintegrate their enemy with one shot.
  • Rocket and grenade launchers that will deal heavy and indiscriminate damage to Sith and troopers alike.
  • Particle beam blasters which launch particle projectiles which explode on contact, making them impossible to deflect via lightsabers.
  • Sonic weapons which generate highly-focused bursts of sonic energy which pass through lightsabers and rupture internal organs, and lower settings (sonic screamers) could cause disorientation and loss of consciousness.
  • Concussion rifles often favoured by Trandoshans that fire compressed capsules of ionized air that send powerful shock waves on contact, sending opponents flying through the air and bypassing lightsabers.
  • Bolt casters which spew electrical energy at the opponent and can hit multiple opponents, and once again bypass lightsabers.
  • Flamethrowers and carbonite projectors, if the enemy tries to get in close and hasn't yet been gunned down these will finish them off.

Now as you mentioned a lot of these weapons are indiscriminate, but given that the attackers will not be fighting in the academy but outside it with their enemies infront and allies behind, it won't be a problem. All the indisciminate chaos will be targeted at them. What's more the HK units, equipped with stealth generators, can plant some mines in front of the academy before they engage, effectively turning it into a death trap.

But if the Sith forces to manage to get in close (which is highly unlikely), the attackers are still capable. I did not make up the term 'piercing touch', its part of Gand martial arts:

The Gand findsmen utilized a style of martial arts, of which the tenets were not readily understood by the galactic community. A few of the moves were translated and described, however; Piercing Touch and Striking Mist. The former, Piercing Touch, was described as a powerful punch that was able to penetrate bone, chitin, and various armors. This move was demonstrated by Ooryl Qrygg when he punched a hole through stormtrooper armor while stationed on Talasea. The other move, Striking Mist, allowed the attacking Gand to sneak in close to their opponent, so that the hits could not be parried or dodged. ~ Wookieepedia, Gand martial arts AKA close quarters fighting.

Now I'm no expert, but if a Gand manages to get up close to an assassin, and uses piercing touch, there is nothing that assassin can do to stop him. At close range he cannot bring the tip of his pike to bear, if he raises his pike in defense the Gand will punch through it (hence it will break) and slam into his chest. Dead assassin.

As for Trandoshans, let's remember that the stun module is at the tip of the pike, so a Trandoshan with wall stature and long arms can dodge the initial jab and then respond with a thwack to the unelectrified part of the pike, or simply grab it and wrench it away. Both leave the assassin open to attack.

What does pose a problem though however, is the MSG, has you said it could have been rendered inoperable. However the MSG is likely buried into the planet's crust as it managed to survive the destruction of the planet despite being at the center of the chaos, so destroying it completely will be very difficult. However the caves could be collapsed, and yet it may not be in Traya's best intentions to do this as the MSG provides her with a means of destroying G0-T0.

Another problem is getting to Malachor V in the first place. However the point you make about stealth generators would only be valid if this battle was occurring in a different era where supply of stygium crystals were rare, and other less crystals such as hibridium would be used as substitutes. However in this era stygium has not yet become rare and therefore is likely to be used as stealth tech. Negating the disadvantages of 'double-blind'. Lets also remember that not all Sith had the ability of 'Force sight' and likely only Traya would be able to see through cloaking devices. Evident through the fact that Meetra could not see the cloaked assassins, the Jedi could not see the Emperor's cloaked space fortress, neither could they see Maul cloaked Scimitar despite it flying right over the Jedi Temple and Anakin almost walked into a stealth ship during the Battle of Christophsis.

And luckily G0-T0 has lots of droid pilots able to navigate Malachor's storms, either that or jettison transport pods disguised as falling debris. However you make a good point about interdiction, that is after all how Traya defeated Exar Kun in the last battle and could definitely be applied here. But lets say G0-T0's little stealthed fleet is pulled out of hyperspace en route to Malachor V. For one they will remain stealthed so Traya will have no means of knowing whether they have been pulled or not, and from that point they can simply skirt around the ships in realspace until they exit the interdiction field and then jump to hyperspace again. Simples. *eek*

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.09.2013 , 05:18 PM | #267
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Concerning attacking the Trayus Academy, firstly the battle by no means has to occur inside the Academy. The best tactic will to be set up a 'blockade' in the large open space before the entrance. And then cause some ruckus to draw them out. This gives them an advantage as any Sith venturing out of the Academy will have to do so through a single small entrance, and will walk straight into awaiting blaster fire. This also gives the attackers the advantage of range, putting the Sith at a disadvantage. It will also give the inhabitants the false illusion they are attempting to lay siege to the Academy and preventing anyone from reinforcing the MSG. And lets remember if G0-T0 gets hold of some anti-stealth tech then the stealth generators will become useless, so they cannot sneak behind enemy lines.

So instantly the Sith lose the advantage of close-quarters combat, in order to bring their weapons to bear they have to get up close. Sure they have Sith Commandos with blasters and grenades. But they'll be going up against mercenaries, assassins and droids with the best tech G0-T0 can outfit them with.
That's an awfully specific set of circumstances. I'm sure that the Sith forces will cooperate and play right into this blatant ambush. Just as they wouldn't post any sentries to detect hostile forces approaching the Academy, or have a QRF standing by near the MSG where it would actually be needed.

If we're going to operate under the assumption that Traya's forces are not only tactically inept, but also lethally stupid, then this Kaggath is a wrap for G0-T0.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Now I'm no expert, but if a Gand manages to get up close to an assassin, and uses piercing touch, there is nothing that assassin can do to stop him. At close range he cannot bring the tip of his pike to bear, if he raises his pike in defense the Gand will punch through it (hence it will break) and slam into his chest. Dead assassin.
I'm not denying the attack's existence, merely that you can't reasonably expect it to be used to strike the assassin's weapon every time. It's a fairly narrow set of circumstances you've established there, almost like something you'd see in a cheesy Western, shooting guns out of people's hands or something.

Any trained killer, if he gets close to you, will kill you. There is nothing anyone can do about that. If the assassin gets in a strike first, the Gand dies. If the Gand gets in a strike, the assassin dies. Now, a force pike seems similar to a weapon with which I am intimately familiar, the bayonet. It's a weapon with reach, but a narrow killing surface on the end. You primarily thrust, and if they evade your first cut, step diagonally and follow up with shallow cuts. If the Gand is in a position to punch the handle of the pike, it means he's already gotten past the assassin's weapon and the assassin would be dead regardless of the Gand's particular weapons.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
As for Trandoshans, let's remember that the stun module is at the tip of the pike, so a Trandoshan with wall stature and long arms can dodge the initial jab and then respond with a thwack to the unelectrified part of the pike, or simply grab it and wrench it away. Both leave the assassin open to attack.
Again, we're down to debating the minutae of hand to hand combat. Naturally, a large Trandoshan will be capable in this respect, but remember that Sith Assassins are no slouches when it comes to melee combat. Not to mention that they will be quite familiar with the handling of their chosen weapons.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
What does pose a problem though however, is the MSG, has you said it could have been rendered inoperable. However the MSG is likely buried into the planet's crust as it managed to survive the destruction of the planet despite being at the center of the chaos, so destroying it completely will be very difficult. However the caves could be collapsed, and yet it may not be in Traya's best intentions to do this as the MSG provides her with a means of destroying G0-T0.
Preserving the MSG in the hopes that it will provide a way to kill G0-T0 is akin to wearing a suicide vest and giving the detonator to a random passerby. If Traya is going to move the MSG to Nar Shadaa and destroy G0-T0, then it won't be on Malachor for him to detonate. If she's not going to use it to lay waste to G0-T0's stronghold, then she'll have disabled it and booby-trapped it from one end of the system to the other.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Another problem is getting to Malachor V in the first place. However the point you make about stealth generators would only be valid if this battle was occurring in a different era where supply of stygium crystals were rare, and other less crystals such as hibridium would be used as substitutes. However in this era stygium has not yet become rare and therefore is likely to be used as stealth tech. Negating the disadvantages of 'double-blind'. Lets also remember that not all Sith had the ability of 'Force sight' and likely only Traya would be able to see through cloaking devices. Evident through the fact that Meetra could not see the cloaked assassins, the Jedi could not see the Emperor's cloaked space fortress, neither could they see Maul cloaked Scimitar despite it flying right over the Jedi Temple and Anakin almost walked into a stealth ship during the Battle of Christophsis.
Actually, any well trained Force sensitive would be able to detect the sudden arrival or another presence in the Force when the fleet is pulled out of hyperspace. And cloaking devices cannot mask the magnetic signature of the ships, allowing missiles to home in on them (as seen in the battle of Chrystophsis) so the Sith fleet would also be able to target the ships once they left hyperspace.

Maul was probably actively disguising his presence in the Force, something the mercenaries would not be trained to do. The same goes for Meetra not being able to detect the assassins. Since they were trained in Force camouflage and equipped with stealth generators, they would be able to evade both forms of detection until the last moment.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And luckily G0-T0 has lots of droid pilots able to navigate Malachor's storms, either that or jettison transport pods disguised as falling debris. However you make a good point about interdiction, that is after all how Traya defeated Exar Kun in the last battle and could definitely be applied here. But lets say G0-T0's little stealthed fleet is pulled out of hyperspace en route to Malachor V. For one they will remain stealthed so Traya will have no means of knowing whether they have been pulled or not, and from that point they can simply skirt around the ships in realspace until they exit the interdiction field and then jump to hyperspace again. Simples. *eek*
Unless the task force consists exclusively of droids, their presence in the Force will be detected, and they will be destroyed with magnetic seeking torpedoes.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.09.2013 , 06:47 PM | #268
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
That's an awfully specific set of circumstances. I'm sure that the Sith forces will cooperate and play right into this blatant ambush. Just as they wouldn't post any sentries to detect hostile forces approaching the Academy, or have a QRF standing by near the MSG where it would actually be needed.

If we're going to operate under the assumption that Traya's forces are not only tactically inept, but also lethally stupid, then this Kaggath is a wrap for G0-T0.
You make a good point, and this demands a tactical reassessment. Given these variables and others, G0-T0 will likely dispatch a large group (say 30-50) of HK-50 assassin droids equipped with stealth generators and advanced weaponry on stealthed vessels. If Traya employs interdiction tactics the droids will be pulled out of hyperspace, but remain undetected (lets be clear, even if there were biologicals on-board the Sith would be powerless to stop them - in order to track a magnetic signature the vessel has to decloak) and then skirt around and jump to hyperspace again.

Once they arrive above Malachor, send down probes to scout out the Academy and the MSG, then deploy transport pods disguised as debris to the scouted location. About the MSG, after doing some more research on it it would seem that destroying/disabling it would be all but impossible. The MSG itself must be buried deep within the planets crust because the Remote never actually interacts with it directly. It merely powers up some engine cores from broken vessels to power the MSG and reactivate it. So really there is no way of getting to it, or disabling it, let alone moving it. However this also means Traya has no means of sabotaging it, and will likely not know how important the crashed vessels are to reactivating it, its very unlikely she will attempt to close them off. That also gives the assassins nothing to guard...

So the HKs will split up into two groups, one group will go with some slicer droids to power up the ship cores and prime the MSG, and the remainder will go and cause a distraction at the Trayus Academy. Granted the Sith aren't going to walk into an obvious trap, and even if they do cause some ruckus, will have no reason to come out. Even so with stealth tech and advanced weaponary the droids will do some considerable damage inside. Lets remember that it didn't completely consist of narrow hallways and corridors, there were large open space too, where an offensive could be staged.

And for the record, sentries are highly unlikely even against a non-stealthed force. Malachor V is extremely hazardous to invaders and its inhabitants, if Sith attempt to venture out and set up ambushes, they are more likely to succumb to poisonous gases or be mauled by Storm beasts before G0-T0's forces arrive.

However there is the possibility that the plan could go wrong, Traya might have a vision of the future. Or she might simply get 'nervous' when she foresees or simply sees an army of HK-50s attacking the planet, knowing that there is a dangerous superweapon nearby, that they would likely attempt to reactivate. So there is a high probality she might attempt an escape and flee to Korriban. Now alot of people have put forward argument for G0-T0 finding Traya on Korriban, but killing her is a whole different story. Without the MSG they'll have to do this 'manually'.

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Ventessel
03.10.2013 , 04:41 AM | #269
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You make a good point, and this demands a tactical reassessment. Given these variables and others, G0-T0 will likely dispatch a large group (say 30-50) of HK-50 assassin droids equipped with stealth generators and advanced weaponry on stealthed vessels. If Traya employs interdiction tactics the droids will be pulled out of hyperspace, but remain undetected (lets be clear, even if there were biologicals on-board the Sith would be powerless to stop them - in order to track a magnetic signature the vessel has to decloak) and then skirt around and jump to hyperspace again.
Quote:
Another drawback common to both [hybridium and stygium cloaking devices] was that a cloaked ship could be tracked was by the ship's magnetic signature. This tactic, used mostly by Separatist commander Admiral Trench, allowed tracking torpedoes to be fired and follow the ship even if it was cloaked.
~Wookiepedia, "Cloaking Device"
I would imagine that in an era where stygium crystals are readily available, warships would stock magnetic tracking ordnance for just such an occasion. The only tricky part is figuring out when they're needed, so if biologicals are felt through the Force, the Sith fire the missiles along the hyperspace route at the edge of the gravity well and let the seekers do their work.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Once they arrive above Malachor, send down probes to scout out the Academy and the MSG, then deploy transport pods disguised as debris to the scouted location. About the MSG, after doing some more research on it it would seem that destroying/disabling it would be all but impossible. The MSG itself must be buried deep within the planets crust because the Remote never actually interacts with it directly. It merely powers up some engine cores from broken vessels to power the MSG and reactivate it. So really there is no way of getting to it, or disabling it, let alone moving it. However this also means Traya has no means of sabotaging it, and will likely not know how important the crashed vessels are to reactivating it, its very unlikely she will attempt to close them off. That also gives the assassins nothing to guard...
Now here's where things are starting to get a little speculative. No one actually knows what the MSG is or looks like. Only Bao-Dur, the weapon's progenitor, really understood how it worked. His remote, operating on his programming and specific instructions, was able to prime the MSG and power it by rigging ship's drive cores. Since Bao-Dur is not available for this Kaggath, G0-T0 has no reliable way of figuring out how to reactivate the MSG.

If it is buried underground, the droids won't be able to access it to figure out how to reactivate it. If it is accessible for study and manipulation, then Traya will have had it destroyed or removed. So the MSG scenario does not seem feasible given the circumstances. It's not like G0-T0 can look up the schematics on the MSG, it was a one of a kind weapon designed by a genius Zabrak military engineer. He didn't exactly leave an instruction manual.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
So the HKs will split up into two groups, one group will go with some slicer droids to power up the ship cores and prime the MSG, and the remainder will go and cause a distraction at the Trayus Academy. Granted the Sith aren't going to walk into an obvious trap, and even if they do cause some ruckus, will have no reason to come out. Even so with stealth tech and advanced weaponary the droids will do some considerable damage inside. Lets remember that it didn't completely consist of narrow hallways and corridors, there were large open space too, where an offensive could be staged.
Sure, once the fighting gets inside the Academy there are a variety of spaces. However, a good defensive layout would capitalize on the narrow bridge leading into the Academy and set up efficient kill zones in every room. There is the possibility of infiltration, but that is true for both sides. The HK-50 droids will be patrolling for stealthed Assassins, just as the Assassins will be patrolling the Academy for stealthed intruders. There is a roughly equal detection chance, so stealth attacks will not be a deciding factor in one direction or another.

But as you mentioned, there's no need for the Sith to try to fight their way out. Far simpler to bleed the attacking forces out and let Malachor slowly kill them off. They could not lay siege for long, since attrition rates would likely be high if they tried to wait outside the Academy. And getting off the planet would be almost impossible, when the invaders attempt to leave, stealthed assassins could follow them and signal the position of their landing craft to the Sith Fleet, which could intercept them and fire tracking torpedoes at their ships as they left Malachor. Or just do what the HK-50s did on Telos and fire a shoulder launched rocket at each ship, damaging them enough that they crash into Malachor and are destroyed.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And for the record, sentries are highly unlikely even against a non-stealthed force. Malachor V is extremely hazardous to invaders and its inhabitants, if Sith attempt to venture out and set up ambushes, they are more likely to succumb to poisonous gases or be mauled by Storm beasts before G0-T0's forces arrive.
In ordinary circumstances, it wouldn't be worthwhile to send out sentries. However, under imminent threat of attack, it is utterly foolish not to send out regular patrols (in force to deal with the Storm beasts) in order to spot approaching hostiles. And I'm sure the people living in the Academy on Malachor would know enough to either wear Sith Armor with rebreather systems, or to bring along an air filtration mask for the patrol.

If Malachor is so prohibitively dangerous that its impossible to patrol at all (some casualties are acceptable, these are the Sith after all) then it is equally likely that the invaders will be killed off as it is for the Sith forces. An attack on the Trayus Academy becomes increasingly unlikely to succeed in that case.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

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Beniboybling
03.10.2013 , 05:59 AM | #270
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
I would imagine that in an era where stygium crystals are readily available, warships would stock magnetic tracking ordnance for just such an occasion. The only tricky part is figuring out when they're needed, so if biologicals are felt through the Force, the Sith fire the missiles along the hyperspace route at the edge of the gravity well and let the seekers do their work.
Well here's what I'm disputing. The Christophsis episode made it seem as if in order to track a ships magnetic signature, the ship must be decloaked. The plus side being that once you've tracked it the ship can't escape by recloaking. I expect the reason behind this is that the ship itself needs something it can detect in order to start tracking, you can't just do a wide scan over some random area and hope you get lucky. The ship needs a target to lock on to.

But concerning the MSG, you make a good point. Without Bao-Dur the MSG is practically useless... so I'm going to have to introduce a minor rule change to prevent this factor I introduced from becoming completely nullified. Based on the principal of "well in a real Kaggath", Bao-Dur would be helping with the Restoration Project on Telos IV so its likely that if G0-T0 wanted to reactivate the device he would hunt down Bao-Dur and force him to help. Bao-Dur wouldn't need much persuading however as he seems to be very much against the Sith. This is in minor conflict with the rule: No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era. But then again Bao-Dur is not an ally, asset or prominent power. I hope you'll accept this minor rule change. (Disturbing thought: if Traya suspects such a plan she might have him 'disappear' )

But back to the battle, let's not forget what we're dealing with here. A small army of stealthed HK-50 assassin droids armed with advanced weaponry and most importantly anti-stealth technology. What this means primarily is that the Academy won't see the attack coming, nor will any sentries (if there any) and for that matter, nor will any storm beasts. So the droids and effectively move silently and safely towards the academy without encountering a single threat.

Granted they'll definitively be stealthed assassins surrounding the entrance, who will likely pick up on oscillations, but that doesn't really matter. The stealth tech is only needed to get them to the Academy, once there at the entrance, they'll decloak, activate the anti-stealth tech and start firing. Let's also remember that force pikes won't have an electifiying effect on droids, although they will do damage. And anti-stealth tech will catch them off guard, leaving them open to vaporisation. Then they just move into the academy rinse and repeat, or alternatively recloak and see if any forces come out to investigate and keep doing that until they get wise and stop coming. Also, can we be more specific concerning these 'kill zones'? Because I'm sure they're are many ways to get around them. Nothing short of blowing up the bridge is going to stop those droids, which would work in G0-T0's favour anyway.

Let's also remember that droids don't wear down. Attrition rates will be extremely low because they only way to stop them is to blast them to pieces, these droids won't retreat, they won't surrender. They'll keep blasting organics until the planet blows up. There is no need to get off the planet, if the attack fails, G0-T0 can just make more.

Let's also remember all that the HKs have to do is keep the academy busy, and stop any assassins from attempting to prevent the MSG's reactivation. So success rates aren't really that important, these guys aren't looking to win - just give Traya a false illusion.