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Is it possible to pry Corso off of your face?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Is it possible to pry Corso off of your face?

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
03.05.2013 , 09:05 AM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
So, unless it's a very specific "amazon warrior" setting, there aren't supposed to be a lot of women actively participating in violent conflict.
Did you possibly miss Bright's mentions of Wynne, Kreia, and Qara? There is absolutely no need for female companions in a setting that involves combat to be amazons. They can be mages (bookish or otherwise), clergy (pious or otherwise), mystics, commoners pushed to defend their homes by oppression, aristocrats (could still work out in combat if they've been trained in, for instance, some fancy duelling style, which still doesn't have to fall into the Amazon pidgeonhole), treasure-hunters, techno-wizards... And, in fact, many of the companions in SW:TOR are just that! Vette is a treasure-hunter, Risha is an aristocrat, Nadia is a diplomat, Mako is an expert slicer... I could go on and on. Even this game, which I am criticising for its lack of non-romanceable female companions, has shown that there's no need for all combat-able women to be Amazons. What can be done for romanceable companions, then, can be done for non-romanceable companions just as easily.

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
03.05.2013 , 09:13 AM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Apologies. So much to read, so little time.
Apology accepted.

Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Also take into consideration that there are widely-established "normal" attractive features for men and for women. Weak and indecisive men are often not appreciated, masculine and aggressive women are rather seen as competition, or buddies rather than ladies. The developers can't just ignore that.
As I said in the previous post, there can be just as many personality archetypes for combat-fit non-romanceable females as there can be for males.

Furthermore, this comment about attitudes... demands to be challenged. You are stating that being weak and indecisive is a feminine quality and that being aggressive is a male quality.

In actual fact, for all the criticism that I have made on one front, the game of SW:TOR itself shows a whole host of different personalities in both male and female characters without making males seem pathetic or women aggressive. There are quieter, more reflective male companions. They are not aggressive, but that does not make them less male. There are more assertive female companions. They are not weak or indecisive, and that does not make them less female.

Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
It has nothing to do with chauvinism, but rather gender-identity.
No, I'm afraid it is not to do with gender identity. Being weak is... well... a weakness regardless of gender. It is not attached to one gender or another.

Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Edit: Also,mind the greater picture. The most prominent figures in the Republic are female. The Chancellor, the Grand Master of the Order, one of Republic Army's top generals. As far as the Empire goes, Military does seem to favor men, but a lot of prominent Sith are women.
These women are not non-romanceable party members, the lack of which was the original problem that I raised.

bright_ephemera's Avatar


bright_ephemera
03.05.2013 , 09:17 AM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Eh... That's a very one-sided, making-facts-appear-in-your-favor type of look, I must say.

Allow me to elaborate. RPG games have a combat-heavy component, no denying that. They often take place at a time of crisis. Now, let's be realistic here. Not trying to be sexist or anything, just look at the facts. In real the world, the vast, vast majority of combatants are male. Very few armed forces have women actually fight on the front lines. During crisis, men, being the cannon fodder of evolution, are often sent to die, while women are preserved, at all costs. This is not just logical "preservation-of-humanity-as-species" practice but something hard-wired into our genes.

So, unless it's a very specific "amazon warrior" setting, there aren't supposed to be a lot of women actively participating in violent conflict. And the player party is often in its heart. Keep in mind that Bioware's female companions play roles of both, frontline fighters, like Aveline (who also isn't romancable by Hawke), and specialists/advisors, so there's no discrimination here.

Now let's do some logic here. To write fulfilling story arcs for companions, there mustn't be too many of them, lest they have a LOAD of free development time and resources (VAs, writing). So it does make sense that the companion pool is kind of limited, right? Now, then, they need to make both genders represented, and characters of both genders need romance options. To keep the writing focused, they pick 1-2 romancable characters for each gender and stay with them. Naturally, more male characters get "left overboard", because there are more male companions. And, as far as ToR goes, a lot of unromancable males are very alien. As in physically. So might want to count them out as well, along with constructs.

So, what am I going with here is - sex eligibility does not define a female companion character. It is there because there are no other options and the protagonist needs a romance option. More than half of SWToR classes have only one female companion, and it makes sense for her to be the romance option, otherwise, the male protagonist would be left high and dry.

Making such a connection is very, very stretched and the situation can be explained with (gasp surprise) something else then chauvinism.
Well, let us be realistic. Look at the facts: straight men in a combat setting go without sex for months at a time, or they pay pr*stitutes and then go on their way. (Or, historically speaking, they force what they can get on anyone they can find, but let us hypothesize that we live in a world where it is considered unacceptable to emulate unwanted sexual advances in our video games.) Otherwise, straight men work and they wait until the campaign's over so they can go home, because there simply aren't that many women on the front lines.

Oh. Wait. Was that too realistic?

The assumption that men deserve and require full service to their needs regardless of the circumstances (as for instance a wildly imbalanced ratio chosen to reflect an ongoing war of traditional weapons/dynamics) is chauvinistic. If you can stretch the imagination enough to give men access to as many healthy or at least sensibly written romances as women get, you can damn well stretch the imagination enough to give women all the company-of-comrades-of-their-own-gender that men get.
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Helig's Avatar


Helig
03.05.2013 , 09:19 AM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Did you possibly miss Bright's mentions of Wynne, Kreia, and Qara? There is absolutely no need for female companions in a setting that involves combat to be amazons. They can be mages (bookish or otherwise), clergy (pious or otherwise), mystics, commoners pushed to defend their homes by oppression, aristocrats (could still work out in combat if they've been trained in, for instance, some fancy duelling style, which still doesn't have to fall into the Amazon pidgeonhole), treasure-hunters, techno-wizards... And, in fact, many of the companions in SW:TOR are just that! Vetta is a treasure-hunter, Risha is an aristocrat, Nadia is a diplomat, Mako is an expert slicer... I could go on and on. Even this game, which I am criticising for it's lack of non-romanceable female companions, has shown that there's no need for all combat-able women to be Amazons. What can be done for romanceable companions, then, can be done for non-romanceable companions just as easily.
I didn't miss them and I didn't think I needed to mention them precisely for the very reason that you're aware of them.

Well... so? Ladies do occupy a lot of "specialist" slots. To make them overtake the "non-direct combat" quota would cause a different chauvinism "women are weak and can't fight" uproar. Imagine how "wrong? would it be, should all women in ToR be healers and other sorts of "support staff". Even from a male point of view, I don't think it's very fair.

To make more female companions non-romancable would mean greatly increasing the number of female companions. From my point of view, it would not make sense. But that's my personal, subjective point of view, which has exceptions, depending on each character's team. For example, male-heavy team makes perfect sense for Havoc Squad, for Jedi Knight's group, for Bounty Hunter's team, etc. However, Agent (true to some regard, too), would indeed lack certain restraints on female specialists. Technically, counting out the Ship droid, 3/5 of Agent companions are female - if we count female-emulating programming. Jedi Consular could use more estrogen aboard the Defender.

Anyhow, just random thoughts.
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Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
03.05.2013 , 09:38 AM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Well... so? Ladies do occupy a lot of "specialist" slots. To make them overtake the "non-direct combat" quota would cause a different chauvinism "women are weak and can't fight" uproar. Imagine how "wrong? would it be, should all women in ToR be healers and other sorts of "support staff". Even from a male point of view, I don't think it's very fair.
"Even from a male point of view" - as if a male point of view isn't supposed to be fair.

I feel that you're trying to have your cake and eat it with this argument. First you say that it would be silly to have a party full of amazons. Then you say it would be unfair to have a party full of healer-types. You present these as counter-points as if any of the people arguing with you had requested these things. A reasonable mix of combat and non-combat support characters is fine, and, indeed, this is what we get. It still has nothing to do with the issue of non-romanceable female companions.

But oh wait, here we go!

Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
To make more female companions non-romancable would mean greatly increasing the number of female companions. From my point of view, it would not make sense. But that's my personal, subjective point of view, which has exceptions, depending on each character's team. For example, male-heavy team makes perfect sense for Havoc Squad, for Jedi Knight's group, for Bounty Hunter's team, etc. However, Agent (true to some regard, too), would indeed lack certain restraints on female specialists. Technically, counting out the Ship droid, 3/5 of Agent companions are female - if we count female-emulating programming. Jedi Consular could use more estrogen aboard the Defender.

Anyhow, just random thoughts.
*blinks* I don't actually see how any of the teams should be naturally predisposed to having more male or female characters. There is little that is so distinctively male about the vast majority of character archetypes used by non-romanceable companions for all the classes you listed (and the rest) that it would not have been ridiculous to make a certain proportion of those characters female. Rather than writing a huge post in which I explain all the evidence for this, I instead direct your attention to the work of other people who've already done so: the character sheets for Republic and Imperial characters and companions over at TV Tropes. I don't ask you to read the lot. As you say, there's a lot to read and little time to do it... and I've honestly spent way more time already posting here than I should. But they might interest you if you feel like reading them.

At least you do admit that the jedi consular could have benefitted from some more female companions on the ship. I certainly see nothing so male about most of the character archetypes used by Zenith that he couldn't have been a she.

Anyway, I have thoroughly derailed the thread (even after Bright commented that this probably wasn't the best place for this discussion), so I will leave off for now.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
03.05.2013 , 09:39 AM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Apology accepted.
As I said in the previous post, there can be just as many personality archetypes for combat-fit non-romanceable females as there can be for males.
Furthermore, this comment about attitudes... demands to be challenged. You are stating that being weak and indecisive is a feminine quality and that being aggressive is a male quality.
No, I'm not attributing weakness and indecisiveness with the female gender. I'm saying that weakness and indecisiveness are not attractive male traits, but modesty and patience are widely considered very attractive female traits in the overwhelming number of cultures.

Doesn't mean that a woman cannot be strong and decisive and still remain a lady. Also doesn't mean that a quiet, patient man cannot be strong when it really counts.

And storytellers need to take that perception account.

Quote:
In actual fact, for all the criticism that I have made on one front, the game of SW:TOR itself shows a whole host of different personalities in both male and female characters without making males seem pathetic or women aggressive. There are quieter, more reflective male companions. They are not aggressive, but that does not make them less male. There are more assertive female companions. They are not weak or indecisive, and that does not male them less female.
Precisely.

Quote:
No, I'm afraid it is not to do with gender identity. Being weak is... well... a weakness regardless of gender. It is not attached to one gender or another.
Precisely.

Maybe my post was worded poorly. We need to distinguish weakness and patience/modesty, yes?

Quote: Originally Posted by bright_ephemera View Post
Well, let us be realistic. Look at the facts: straight men in a combat setting go without sex for months at a time, or they pay pr*stitutes and then go on their way. (Or, historically speaking, they force what they can get with anyone they can find, but let us hypothesize that we live in a world where it is considered unacceptable to emulate unwanted sexual advances in our video games.) Otherwise, straight men work and they wait until the campaign's over so they can go home, because there simply aren't that many women on the front lines.

Oh. Wait. Was that too realistic?
I don't see how that grotesque exaggeration has anything to do with the point that I raised. At least when the point that it seemingly addresses is getting pulled out of context.
Quote:
The assumption that men deserve and require perfectly equal service to their needs regardless of the circumstances (as for instance a wildly imbalanced ratio chosen to reflect an ongoing war of traditional weapons/dynamics) is chauvinistic. If you can stretch the imagination enough to give men access to as many healthy or at least sensibly written romances as women get, you can damn well stretch the imagination enough to give women all the company-of-comrades-of-their-own-gender that men get.
Now then, that's a pretty lopsided view. If I attributed whatever percieved injustice that I witness to malice, I would have already gone insane and slaughtered the world (or died trying, which is most likely).

Facts are - there are less female companions than male companions. Both, male and female protagonists need romance options. To keep the number of options roughly even, more male companions are left overboard. Making every human or near-human character romancable would be simply inefficient in terms of development resources.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Windscion's Avatar


Windscion
03.05.2013 , 10:38 AM | #97
Gave up reading this after one page, but here's what I did:

I deleted my female smuggler and rerolled as a guy (was level 14 or so). I just could not handle Corso's sexist ********, however nice he thought he was being about it. I just don't deal well with people who naturally assume they are superior to me.

My guy smug doesn't much care what Corso thinks and can ignore his inane chatter for as long as he remains useful.

Koyaanisqat's Avatar


Koyaanisqat
03.05.2013 , 10:41 AM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
I'm kind of surprised that being mean to Corso doesn't turn off the romance. It seems like they should add in some "second chance" dialog options for people who want to get back in or out.
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Tattari's Avatar


Tattari
03.05.2013 , 09:01 PM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Incorrect. LS Jaesa, for example, is quite firm in maintaining a Jedi way of life, true to the Code.

There are also more male companions than female companions. If the rate was reversed, an opposite conclusion could be drawn.

Both types of female romance characters are present. Akaavi and Kaliyo are, for example, are strong, independent, and definitely very experienced.

Also, all romance options in both DA games supposedly had a lot of experience.

Well, the holo-addict *is* quite aggressive. As far as Iresso goes, he's not the only one who has a well-written romance line for females.

For both genders, well-written romance arcs are rather... scarce. The often sole eligible companions are sometimes rather obnoxious.
LS Jaesa may not be, but it doesn't counteract that DS Jaesa can be. Ergo, ALL the female companions (maybe sans SCORPIO, i have no clue) are romancable. It's the male player who may consciously make Jaesa non-romancable, but it doesn't hide that fact that he can if he so chooses.

Most of the guys aren't, which is highly unfair.