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Revan, Surik, Malak(redeemed) vs The Emperor, The Emperor's Wrath, Scourge.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Revan, Surik, Malak(redeemed) vs The Emperor, The Emperor's Wrath, Scourge.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 09:34 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Personally, I find the winner easy to determine. I think Revan and company will win.

No doubt Revan and the Emperor will be battling while Surik and Alek duel the others. I don't think Revan can handle the Emperor alone, but I think he can last long enough for the others to come help him.

Alek should be able to contend with Scourge, and I think Meetra can defeat the Wrath. Maybe not even defeat him/her. I think she could use Dun Moch and tell him/her what the Emperor plans to do, thus turning him/her against the Emperor. What Sith would want to be killed so their master can rule forever?

Then we have a 4 v 2. The (now former) Wrath can join Alek to kill Scourge and Meetra can help Revan fight the Emperor. Then we come down to a 4 v 1, and I don't think the Emperor can beat those odds.
This leaves far too much to chance. Who is to say that Wrath will change sides? He's basically just a psychotic killer sworn to the Emperor, I doubt there'll be time to persuade him to change sides.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.28.2013 , 09:39 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
This leaves far too much to chance. Who is to say that Wrath will change sides? He's basically just a psychotic killer sworn to the Emperor, I doubt there'll be time to persuade him to change sides.
Spoiler


My warrior sure wouldn't, despite him being Dark V.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 10:31 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
I would probably go for Revan, Surik and Malak in this case....
Although, I do believe that 3 vs 3 is far too small scale for Revan's Battlefield Strategy - Especially as his 'strategy' did seem to consist of outnumbering your foe and having nigh-unlimited resources to call upon...
But to be fair to Revan - Malak still managed to lose with the same resources so he is definitely better than some.....
Every source indicates that Revan was brilliant when it came to strategy, he took a defeated army that was on its heels and invigorated them with victory after victory until the Mandalorians were on the run.

Also, nothing is too small of a scale for strategy. Even in a 1 vs 1 engagement involves positioning and maneuver. As I explained earlier, the foundations of battlefield strategy lie in small matches between 2, 3, or more individuals. Revan will know this and plan accordingly.


Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
However, This is a case where there is not enough solid Canon for me to go on to make a really informed decision
Not having an 'Advanced Class' is kind of restrictive for the Wrath and may be what makes the difference to my decision - The Wrath with an 'Advanced class' and Solidly outlined Skills - I might well be inclined to change my mind......And so may others....
I think it's safe to assume that Wrath is a fearsome duelist, and tough as well. He would probably be on a par with Revan or Malak in terms of saber skills, and likely would overmatch the Exile given enough time (assuming the Exile relies solely on skill with the blade, rather than the Force)

Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
Also, as someone alluded to earlier The 3 matchups might not pair up as you are assuming - especially if the Empire team takes the initiative... I would say that there is strong evidence that the Emperor is the Combatant here that can take down a foe the quickest and could feasably Disable Malak, Or Surik with 1 lightning blast if that Sith (Lord (Lady) was able to do this to Surik and Scourge and the Emperor is a lot more powerful than her) - The Emperor may be able to make this a 3 vs 2 and then 3 vs 1 quite quickly......maybe Scourge could be taken out Quickly by the other side - but the Wrath is again is the X Factor (and as a Player Character - may canonically end up being on the Level of Revan or maybe even greater when things are finally fleshed out...) At the Very least I would say that the Wrath would probably Surpass Malak and Rival Revan and Surik (but without solid canon - I admit that this is my opinion)

Damn, You guys must hate me.......I must seem like I'm always being difficult on purpose - I promise I'm not - but I do really like to know as much solid facts as possible before I can really give an honest opinion.
Naturally the Emperor is the most formidable one here, which is exactly why Revan will seek to keep him from being effective until the last possible moment.

The initiative clearly lies with the Jedi, they are choosing when and how to attack. Thus, they will have the element of surprise initially, long enough to control the shape that the battle takes.

Revan should engage Wrath, and have Malak/Exile kill Scourge, then kill Wrath while Revan switches to the Emperor. As long as both of the Emperor's allies are alive, they can be used as cover from his lightning, at least long enough for Scourge to be killed.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 10:34 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Spoiler


My warrior sure wouldn't, despite him being Dark V.
Yes, but is the Emperor's Wrath going to stand around and listen to well reasoned arguments? This is going to be a mad scrabble to the death, perhaps if Wrath engaged one of the Jedi alone there would be a chance to employ Dun Moch. This fight, however, will be fast and hectic.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.28.2013 , 10:38 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Yes, but is the Emperor's Wrath going to stand around and listen to well reasoned arguments? This is going to be a mad scrabble to the death, perhaps if Wrath engaged one of the Jedi alone there would be a chance to employ Dun Moch. This fight, however, will be fast and hectic.
That's a good point. Maybe the revelation will stun him momentarily and create an opening for attack. If not then Meetra's superiority in The Force will be enough to undermine the Wrath's saber skills.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 10:45 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's a good point. Maybe the revelation will stun him momentarily and create an opening for attack. If not then Meetra's superiority in The Force will be enough to undermine the Wrath's saber skills.
Be that as it may, it's not a good way to approach the battle. The three Jedi are proven tacticians and military commanders, they will want to control the shape of the battle.

Three individual duels is bad strategy. Refer to my above posts for how they should engage.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.28.2013 , 11:35 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Be that as it may, it's not a good way to approach the battle. The three Jedi are proven tacticians and military commanders, they will want to control the shape of the battle.

Three individual duels is bad strategy. Refer to my above posts for how they should engage.
Of course, but I think it would be a bad idea to leave the Emperor to his own devices.

However, given the wit and skill of our heroes, I think they may be able to best the Emperor in the above scenario. Provided they can eliminate Scourge and the Wrath quickly enough, which is likely.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.01.2013 , 12:39 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Of course, but I think it would be a bad idea to leave the Emperor to his own devices.

However, given the wit and skill of our heroes, I think they may be able to best the Emperor in the above scenario. Provided they can eliminate Scourge and the Wrath quickly enough, which is likely.
If they strike quickly and decisively. I don't foresee Scourge surviving the combined attentions of Malak and the Exile more than a few seconds at most. After that, Revan merely has to delay the Emperor while the other two hammer down Wrath.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
03.01.2013 , 10:53 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
If they strike quickly and decisively. I don't foresee Scourge surviving the combined attentions of Malak and the Exile more than a few seconds at most. After that, Revan merely has to delay the Emperor while the other two hammer down Wrath.

Fights are Fluid and they May not be able to isolate Scourge in that way that they would want to (an even if so - May leave Revan to be beaten Quickly by the combined attentions of the Emperor and the Wrath).....and I still think the Wrath is the X factor here - The Wrath may well be capable of holding Revans Attention (or Even beating him) while The Emperor hammers down the other two - The Wrath may possibly even be the second quickest killer here.....The Wrath May Well be able to Tank 2 of them for a while (then Scourge is more relevant in this case - as he has proven that he has the initiatve to take advantage of a distraction) - while the Emperor Defeats whoever he faces off against...The Wrath or the Emperor may be able to kill one (lets say Malak) in a 2v1 Making that a 1v1 -

but then again - the Wrath may not be able to do this......Not Enough solid canon to say either way....

Furthermore - Does the Emperor only need bodies as 'speed bumps' in the mix - for him to Kill each one of them in turn himself? (and Even Sacrificing his Allies to do so)
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.01.2013 , 03:31 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
Fights are Fluid and they May not be able to isolate Scourge in that way that they would want to (an even if so - May leave Revan to be beaten Quickly by the combined attentions of the Emperor and the Wrath).....and I still think the Wrath is the X factor here - The Wrath may well be capable of holding Revans Attention (or Even beating him) while The Emperor hammers down the other two - The Wrath may possibly even be the second quickest killer here.....The Wrath May Well be able to Tank 2 of them for a while (then Scourge is more relevant in this case - as he has proven that he has the initiatve to take advantage of a distraction) - while the Emperor Defeats whoever he faces off against...The Wrath or the Emperor may be able to kill one (lets say Malak) in a 2v1 Making that a 1v1 -

but then again - the Wrath may not be able to do this......Not Enough solid canon to say either way....

Furthermore - Does the Emperor only need bodies as 'speed bumps' in the mix - for him to Kill each one of them in turn himself? (and Even Sacrificing his Allies to do so)
If the Emperor kills off one of his allies trying to kill the Jedi, this only accelerates their plan of attack.

Scourge really won't have an opportunity to take advantage of anything, he's basically going to get killed immediately. He is competent with the Force, but is not shown to have particular dueling skills. The Exile and Malak can Force Leap to him (Malak has a particular aptitude with this) and cut him down. There's no way he can survive against those two.

I doubt that Wrath is strong enough to kill Revan quickly, at best he's a match for Revan's saber skills. So all that Revan has to do is maneuver for a few moments to keep the Emperor from having a clear shot, fighting defensively and focusing on his positioning. As soon as Scourge is dead (figure five to eight seconds into the fight) the Exile and Malak jump to Wrath and start fighting him, and Revan disengages and fights the Emperor.

At this point it becomes a matter of Revan delaying the Emperor, something we know he is capable of, and Exile/Malak killing Wrath.

While it may take them some time to kill Wrath, Malak and the Exile will launch a coordinated attack (they're both generals, this is their forte) and so Wrath will be on the defensive, trying to defend himself against simultaneous attacks from both sides. Malak is a duelist almost on par with Revan, and the Exile is not far behind. As good as Wrath is, he will constantly face the threat of Malak tying him up in saber combat while the Exile assaults him with the Force and provides flanking for Malak.

In an actual duel, you can't "tank" the way you can in a video game. We're not measuring hit points here, you get carved up with a lightsaber, you're dead. So Wrath will be relying on his saber skills to defend himself, not any buffs or tanking powers. Wrath's death becomes inevitable in the face of Malak/Exile's coordinated assault.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell