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Assasin tank in 2.0


Biggreen's Avatar


Biggreen
02.25.2013 , 05:55 PM | #11
i just feel i cant even tank with new stats even EV hm - which i can do now with closed eyes =( thats the problem

haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
02.26.2013 , 10:18 PM | #12
This is a silly post. The level cap is 55 so its like your wearing 45 gear on live. Also you gonna have to remember the gear they give you is like tionese now.
Kinetic ward was buffed... it was made free, procs an absorb buff, it just has slightly a longer cool down, not to mention the wonderful change to shield they've made.
And the damage reduction loss was gained in the boost to healing we receive from this update. Please educate yourself.
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Kitru
02.26.2013 , 10:42 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by haksilence View Post
Kinetic ward was buffed... it was made free, procs an absorb buff, it just has slightly a longer cool down, not to mention the wonderful change to shield they've made.
There is some question as to whether the KW change was actually a full buff or a pseudo-stealth nerf that breaks even with the explicit buffs, mainly because you lose those KW stacks *so friggin fast* now that it works on all K/E damage attacks. The functional increase in the speed wherein you lose KW stacks combined with the 25% increase in the CD makes it so that you're actually going to end up with less KW uptime than you had before by a pretty substantial margin.

As has been said numerous times, if the developers are going to consider KW a constant buff, which they seem to have done in virtually all survivability calcs since the start of the game, it should simply be made one outright. The drop off in survivability when you lose KW immediately is *way* too big, considering. The only reason we don't notice it as much any more is because we've overgeared everything. I remember back at release, it was a major point of contention that only faded whenever gear started outstripping everything else. Now that gear is undergoing another reset, it's going to be a big issue once again.
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Omophorus
02.27.2013 , 09:40 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
There is some question as to whether the KW change was actually a full buff or a pseudo-stealth nerf that breaks even with the explicit buffs, mainly because you lose those KW stacks *so friggin fast* now that it works on all K/E damage attacks. The functional increase in the speed wherein you lose KW stacks combined with the 25% increase in the CD makes it so that you're actually going to end up with less KW uptime than you had before by a pretty substantial margin.

As has been said numerous times, if the developers are going to consider KW a constant buff, which they seem to have done in virtually all survivability calcs since the start of the game, it should simply be made one outright. The drop off in survivability when you lose KW immediately is *way* too big, considering. The only reason we don't notice it as much any more is because we've overgeared everything. I remember back at release, it was a major point of contention that only faded whenever gear started outstripping everything else. Now that gear is undergoing another reset, it's going to be a big issue once again.
As has been pointed out in the PTS forums, it's quite possible that a rate limit on charge loss or an increase in number of charges would help offset the increased spikiness since 2.0.

Frankly, I'm all for a rate limit (maybe 1 charge/s) as it will significantly smooth the DTPS profile, even if there are scenarios where we'll take more damage, and the smoother profile will make it easier for BioWare's flawed metrics to make an accurate accounting of our survivability.

I'll be honest, subjectively I don't "feel" excessively squishy on the PTS except when tanking big packs of trash with no CCs. For larger pulls, as long as a couple mobs can be knocked out and the DPS gets the kill order right, it's not bad either. It's only when there are a lot of mobs to tank, a disorganized group, and a panicked healer that the changes become a real detriment.

I still think that the design of Sin/Shadow in 2.0 is a little suspect, as the level of competence required of both the tank and their healers is higher than in live, and significantly higher than with either other tanking AC on either faction. If, in fact, Sin/Shadow is still the sturdiest tank by a fair margin, it's almost a fair compromise, but I'd rather see a rebalance that makes an experience with an "average" (read: bad) Sin/Shadow less painful.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.27.2013 , 11:19 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
As has been pointed out in the PTS forums, it's quite possible that a rate limit on charge loss or an increase in number of charges would help offset the increased spikiness since 2.0.

Frankly, I'm all for a rate limit (maybe 1 charge/s) as it will significantly smooth the DTPS profile, even if there are scenarios where we'll take more damage, and the smoother profile will make it easier for BioWare's flawed metrics to make an accurate accounting of our survivability.
The problem is that these aren't new suggestions: they've been suggested from the very beginning and, honestly, it looks like the developers are no more likely to implement them now than they did at release. Hell, it took the developers over a year to remove the Force cost from KW, something that had been mentioned as an unfair mechanism for just as long (no other tank has to spend resources regularly on a pure survivability mechanism).

The mechanism I've always supported has been KW stack *regeneration* through the use of certain attacks or conditions. Imagine if defending/resisting an attack *generated* a KW stack or scoring a critical hit with Project, Slow Time or Force Breach generated new stacks. Either solution would solve the primary problem with KW disappearing too quickly when it's supposed to be a constant benefit according to all balance math we've ever seen, not to mention working better with the current stats (so that Defense actually serves a functional purpose beyond just mitigation, since, as it stands, the mitigation benefits are questionable at best) and ability layout (since there's almost no reason to use PA since it's so inefficient; getting a guaranteed crit with Project to generate 2-4 new KW stacks off of the KW CD could actually make it a *useful* survivability mechanism).

Quote:
I still think that the design of Sin/Shadow in 2.0 is a little suspect, as the level of competence required of both the tank and their healers is higher than in live, and significantly higher than with either other tanking AC on either faction. If, in fact, Sin/Shadow is still the sturdiest tank by a fair margin, it's almost a fair compromise, but I'd rather see a rebalance that makes an experience with an "average" (read: bad) Sin/Shadow less painful.
I find it amusing because this is exactly how it was when TOR first released: a lot of tank Shadows were utterly terrible and, as such, the class/role as a whole had a terrible reputation; those few of us that knew how to play them and could play them *well* showed people that Shadows were *amazing* tanks when you didn't just facetank things. It seems to me that it's just coming back full circle, with bad Shadows once again being shown how bad they really are.
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haksilence
02.27.2013 , 02:49 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The mechanism I've always supported has been KW stack *regeneration* through the use of certain attacks or conditions. Imagine if defending/resisting an attack *generated* a KW stack or scoring a critical hit with Project, Slow Time or Force Breach generated new stacks. Either solution would solve the primary problem with KW disappearing too quickly when it's supposed to be a constant benefit according to all balance math we've ever seen, not to mention working better with the current stats (so that Defense actually serves a functional purpose beyond just mitigation, since, as it stands, the mitigation benefits are questionable at best) and ability layout (since there's almost no reason to use PA since it's so inefficient; getting a guaranteed crit with Project to generate 2-4 new KW stacks off of the KW CD could actually make it a *useful* survivability mechanism).

.
easily the best idea kintru has ever had. i would LOVE to see something like that introduced. would make the shadow tanking mechanics a little more dynamic and original.
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Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
02.27.2013 , 07:33 PM | #17
I will give the "Good Idea Fairies" on the Dev team credit for at least attempting to address the sustaining/regen'ing of KW issue. The 8% absorb during down time was at least an effort.
Alas... Attempts and efforts only go so far since I'm still trying to figure the kind of math that makes 25% shield equal to 8% absorb
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.27.2013 , 08:32 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Grumpftard View Post
I will give the "Good Idea Fairies" on the Dev team credit for at least attempting to address the sustaining/regen'ing of KW issue. The 8% absorb during down time was at least an effort.
Alas... Attempts and efforts only go so far since I'm still trying to figure the kind of math that makes 25% shield equal to 8% absorb
It wasn't meant to make 8% Absorb break even with 20% Shield. It was meant to ameliorate the lack of it so that, while KW is down, you're at least getting *something*.

Of course, as of the latest PTS, they increased the number of baseline KW stacks to 15 (I'm curious as to whether this will increase the number of KB stacks as well or if that is still capped at 8) to offset the fact that KW stacks burn off so quickly now. Nearly doubling the number of stacks is pretty effective, if a bit lacking in creativity, but I'll take those fixes where I can get 'em.
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banehammer's Avatar


banehammer
02.27.2013 , 10:49 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by periphelion View Post
This happened to all tanks... all stats have their formulas tweaked. Seriously, get a clue before complaining.
^^ This.
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Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.28.2013 , 02:19 AM | #20
For the record, as of today's build on PTS, Assassin just got *stupid* good.

Force Management is basically trivial. With a decent rate of shielding, I'm literally not using Saber Strike because I can't spend enough Force (Force Lightning is obscenely Force-positive whilst tanking).

On top of that, the extra charges in Dark Ward mean that tanking trash isn't a painful and dicey proposition.

2/2 in Conspirator's Cloak is almost a necessity now, because now there's significant opportunity to use Thrash, and Maul becomes very Force-efficient damage/threat. With the damage nerf to Shock, it also makes for a good stand-in to build even more threat than before.

I'm having a ton of fun with this PTS build, but I do have a very real concern that the devs went a hair too far and Assassin is now significantly overtuned. That's not a problem in and of itself, but I'd hope it's addressed via buffs to Juggernaut and Powertech tanks rather than negative rebalancing to Assassin.

They *finally* made it viable to do more than just Shock, Wither, Force Lightning, and Saber Strike (with the rare Thrash to avoid wasting Force), and I am digging it. With the sheer volume of Force that is available to spend now, Assassin is an obscene threat machine.

Here is a Hammer Station from tonight. It was late, I was a couple beers in, made a bunch of mistakes, and was still adjusting to the new Force regen rate. There's a lot more on the table here (including getting DTPS on the 2nd boss down significantly by not being a derp). Far and away my biggest mistake from the night was not making enough of an effort to Shroud/Interrupt "Torch" whilst tanking the other 2, because 60%+ of the damage taken in that fight was from his flamethrower.

DPS is up significantly, DTPS is down significantly, TPS is up very significantly, and FPS (fun per second) is off the scale. HPS will probably go up a bit too once I do a better/luckier job of using Energize procs to shorten time between FL channels. I frequently delayed FL one GCD to squeeze in a Maul so that I wouldn't badly overcap Force mid-channel.

Edit: Bulwark stacks are still capped at 8, FYI.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"