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SWTOR, flashy lights, and photosensitive epilepsy


Olicc

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SWTOR, flashy lights, and photosensitive epilepsy

My Girlfriend and I are gamers. We love video games, and we love SWTOR. I’ve been playing since early beta and am the leader of an active end game guild on Jedi Covenant. We both play almost every day and from the beginning have been involved in end game content. But starting with TFB, we started having a very real and scary problem. My girlfriend has photosensitive epilepsy, and I’m sure that most of you have no idea what that is. You may have noticed a disclaimer when loading some video games that flashing lights has been known to causes seizures and then you promptly disregarded it because for most people this does not apply to you. I did the same thing. Unfortunately, it does apply to my girlfriend who has photosensitive epilepsy (PE). PE is a sensitivity to repeating patterns, and most commonly occurs when you view bright strobing lights; for example, the worst possible condition would be a strobe light where it quickly strobes between fully dark and bright light. The brain has difficulty processing this information and begins to, for lack of a better explanation, short circuit. After only a few seconds someone with PE can go from totally fine to having a seizure and it can sometimes be difficult to recognize it in time or to avoid it even after you recognize it.

 

So what does this have to do with SWTOR? Well, months back when TFB first came out our guild was playing through TFB for the first time and when clearing the trash on the way to the 3rd “Tron” boss “Operator IX”, we quickly discovered that the data cores had an electricity attack that had a bright strobing effect. My GF, who plays right next to me, told me that she might not be able to do the operation and that her stomach hurt but wasn’t communicating very clearly with me (confusion and difficultly thinking and communicating is part of the symtoms). Being the ops leader at the time I was a bit distracted and not yet being fully familiar with PE, I told her to try to take her character out of the room with the “flashy lights” and just wait for us to clear the room and she could join us after. I underestimated the effects the strobing had already had on her. At this point she was already suffering from Vertigo (basically your brain becomes confused and starts to perceive motion which does not exist, typically a severe and prolonged spinning or shaking sensation far beyond normal dizziness. I’ve experienced it once while trying to sleep after the death of my father and it SUCKED), which for her is the second stage of PE just before she starts to have seizers’. We cleared the room and then tried to do the same thing for the second data core room and that’s when things got really bad… Needless to say, the operation came to an abrupt halt.

 

So that was that, my GF could not play TFB after the second boss. Once we tried to sub another tank for just that third fight and she joined us for the second incarnation of Kephess, but he has multiple strobe effects, too. 1) the minor lightning tether linking him to the pillars (which by itself probably wouldn’t be a problem and 2) the debuff the tank gets (her main is a tank) where they get a bright flashy strobe on them and then have to run into another bright flashy object to clear it. Expecting possible trouble, we caught this one early enough and called for a /stuck to end the fight and she was removed from the operation for her safety.

 

For the next several months she was left out and behind as the rest of her guildmates including myself worked through HM TFB and got their gear. Many a Tue and Thursday nights I spent with the guild running operations into HM TFB and she would go off and solo queue for WZs or grind an alt. She felt left out and I would often hear about it and it wore on both of us. But I was hopeful that new content would come out soon and she would be able to jump right back into the mix. When S&V came out on PTS I was right there. I copied my characters over and got our guild together to go through SM S&V to learn the fights. At first, all was well. The lands are largely desert areas and nothing seemed excessively flashy. Until….. the very last boss, the Dread Master Styrak who has a very large and bright purple strobing force lightning attack. My heart deflated…. It would be yet another operation that my GF would not be able to participate in. So, with a deep sigh of disappointment, I realized that my GF has no access to either lvl 55 operation (TFB is being upgraded to lvl 55) and therefore no access to end game PvE content. I knew on the spot that I couldn’t spend another three months playing the operation without her and leaving her behind when she wanted to play, too, but couldn’t. It would mean the end of the game for her…. And that means, it would likely be the end of the game for me.

 

I make this post because I’m not sure how many people are aware of this problem. And I’m not sure how many other people are affected by it, as well. How many other potential long term customers were pushed away by the content? Was Bioware even aware that their content was having this effect on some of their players? And if so, would they be willing to do something about it? Certainly I wouldn’t expect them to remove content and animations from everyone due to its effects on what is probably a relatively small population. But perhaps there could be some variable solution such as a flag you could set in user options that 1) changed the game to black and white, reducing the contrast in brightness or 2) remove certain flashy effects like those mentioned and other effects you probably never noticed like the blue flashing lights on the cop cars in cademimu and make them constant lights instead of strobing. Most people could leave this off while those with PE could use it to allow them to continue to play.

 

My cynical side says that there is no way this will ever happen. It would cost money and use resources to fix this problem that Bioware would rather use for other things; there probably aren’t enough people with PE to justify the fix. It would be more cost effective to just lose a few dozen subscriptions and focus on fixing bugs and new content for the rest of the community. But maybe, just maybe, after posting this, more people come out and discuss similar problems and maybe it’s not as small a problem as I think it is. And maybe, just maybe, Bioware will want to be in the forefront and recognize this problem and be a leader in the industry by doing something about it. And maybe my girlfriend and I can continue the hobby we love and play video games together. After all, it’s how we first met, in a warzone on Alderaan. So, here goes nothing…

Edited by Olicc
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I do have paragraphs, I put an additional carriage return between them to make it more clear. You think I need to break it down into smaller paragraphs? I realize its probably more information than most forum readers will be willing to read, but it's not written for everyone, just those who have an interest in this particular topic. Edited by Olicc
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I share this concern with Olicc and started a similar thread just before this one was posted. For the sake of reference between the two, here is the link.

Please direct further conversation here as Olicc's post is much more informative.

 

Suggestions

  • Provide an option that causes "flashing" effects to instead display a constant aura.
  • Provide a rate limit for "flashing" effects.
  • Render "flashing" effects in negative (this may or may not be effective).

Edited by notanotherlogin
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Towards the end SWG (yes I know. I said SWG. Haters can just deal with it.) had an option where they could adjust the level of particle affects which were rendered. Moving the slider most of the way down removed most of the effects that can cause probs. I don't know if that's something that could be done with this engine, but it's something to consider.
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As someone who has epilepsy, I'm glad to see this issue highlighted, and some suggestions for resolution posted.

 

Some people may read this and think the issue is no big deal as it will only affect a small group of people. But it is important to realise that, when exposed to this type of stimuli, even people with no past history of epilepsy can experience a seizure.

 

Warnings on game boxes etc are all well and good, but how difficult would it be for game developers to not use strobe lighting effects in the first place? It's not something that is essential for game play. I understand it would be impossible to remove every single visual stimuli that could potentially trigger a seizure in someone who is extremely sensitive, but the obvious ones like strobe effects and rapidly changing images could easily be avoided. A lot of game developers are now trying to make their games more accessible to people with disabilities - epilepsy should be a consideration here.

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We attempted S&V with my g/f yesterday and she had to stop on the 2nd boss. I didn't catch it on my first run through, but the boss has a lot of white based explosions that flash quite brightly.

 

Some statistics for you from the epilepsy foundation website:

2+ Million Americans Have Epilepsy

150,000 Annual New Cases in the U.S.

1 in 10 People Have Had a Seizure

65 Million People Have Epilepsy Worldwide

And to me the most pointed, Approximately 1 in 26 Americans Will Develop Epilepsy at Some Point in their Lifetime.

 

As the gaming community continues to get older (its not just for kids anymore, 30 somethings grew up playing games and still play) I think this is going to become a bigger issue and will eventually need to be addressed better than it has in the past. No time like the present...

 

I would love to see something from BW indicating that they have at least read this post and will look into the possibility of solving the problem and determine if its feasible to do within the budget and resource constraints.

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Just curious, but can't you just lower the graphics to sucgh a bare minimum that while the game may look ugly, you can lay through it without the effects?

 

I ask this as I figure the reason for the flashing lights and such, is that it really doesn't effect many people at all, and they'd prefer to have pretty flashing graphics going on.

 

Not that I'm against added settings, but have you even tried this? I've found most MMOs (haven't checked with TOR, as I've always just gone with max graphic settings) can get so low as to basically obscure everything.

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Just curious, but can't you just lower the graphics to sucgh a bare minimum that while the game may look ugly, you can lay through it without the effects?

 

I ask this as I figure the reason for the flashing lights and such, is that it really doesn't effect many people at all, and they'd prefer to have pretty flashing graphics going on.

 

Not that I'm against added settings, but have you even tried this? I've found most MMOs (haven't checked with TOR, as I've always just gone with max graphic settings) can get so low as to basically obscure everything.

That's a good idea, but I believe it only affects the transparency of lighting effects not their flashing. I will have to check this out again as it's been quite awhile since I experimented with those settings.

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Id like to say thank you to everyone bumping this thread. I am the op's Gf this post is about and am hoping some kind of resolution can be found. I have made the decision if bioware cant even respond to this post to indicate they are aware then I cannot give them my money anymore just to pvp and do outdated ops. I have enjoyed playing what I could and will miss it.

 

Sincerely,

Hedda Lettuce

Edited by Cranksetkiller
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Just curious, but can't you just lower the graphics to sucgh a bare minimum that while the game may look ugly, you can lay through it without the effects?

 

I ask this as I figure the reason for the flashing lights and such, is that it really doesn't effect many people at all, and they'd prefer to have pretty flashing graphics going on.

 

Not that I'm against added settings, but have you even tried this? I've found most MMOs (haven't checked with TOR, as I've always just gone with max graphic settings) can get so low as to basically obscure everything.

 

We've messed around with both monitor settings like contrast and in game settings. Adjusting the contrast was not effective. The amount of contrast needed to make a significant change in the amount of flashiness made the game unplayable. I don't recall lowering the game settings for her specifically, but until a recent PC upgrade, I played the game on nearly its lowest setting and the flashing animations were all still there, if less detailed. Its worth a shot to try turning them down all the way, but based on what I've seen I don't think it changes the graphics in the way that we need it to. I'll test it as soon as I can in game and post here.

 

BW, this is a serious matter. This isn't complaining about a nerf or over-reacting about a change being "game breaking". We're talking about seizures and hospitals. You might want to get your compliance department involved here before they are blind sided by a call from the epilepsy foundation wanting to know your policies and safeguards due to complaints they have received.

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OP, I sympathize with you and your girlfriend on this problem, even though I do not know anyone who suffers from similar condition.

 

I would welcome an added option for people with epilepsy. The game already has color-blind mode and several other ways to help disabled people, so it should have something for this condition, as it is something current medical science does not have a good solution for (I heard about some brain implant that almost eliminates it, but that is not a good solution)

 

You might want to try contact BioWare with this request directly, and see if you can get some answer if something like that is even planned, as this topic will just get lost in the cesspool that is the Suggestion Box way before anyone from BW will see it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to SWGEvictee, this setting does not have anything to do with engine, it is a graphical setting, and that is entirely in the hands of developers.

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I attempted to call them today, was on hold for half an hour and talked to a CS rep who I spoke with for about 10 min and they said they had to transfer me to someone else. Remained on hold for another 45 min but then had to go to work.
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I support this thread 110% and I really hope that BW is fixing this right now and in upcoming operations.

 

My guild tried to progress today on Operator IX HM, but both me and a tank got a huge headache and needed to take 2 minutes break after every try. It has never happened before and I never had any similiar problems.

 

So please Bioware, pay attention to this thread!

Edited by Hidzhuut
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Just want to bump this thread again and say that this is something Bioware either should have considered before creating the content, or at least they should redesign it to be more accessible to all players. A settings toggle would be enough.
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I would love to see some in game settings that could help tone down the effects that can trigger an episode. I've had several friends who have had to stop playing MMOs due to PE, and their bad experiences in previous games has made them unwilling to try SWTOR .

 

If there were settings that allowed for us to turn of the "cause seizure" effects, it would go a long way toward getting at least some new subscriptions (and preserving existing ones, like Hedda's).

 

There have been other games with sliders to reduce the flashy effects... if I remember right City of Heroes had something like that as well and it worked great - my friends were able to crank that down, play the game just fine, and not miss out on anything other than pain and suffering.

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It's interesting how BioWare never takes the time to participate in these threads.

A toggle for these effects should be mandatory in games.

I seriously doubt that BW bothers to check Suggestion box that often, as it is mostly just enormous cesspool of stupid and repeated ideas from people that are mentally incapable of grasping a simple concept of how development works (also knows as the "gimme gimme now" folk).

However, this topic does deserve to be kept on front page for as long as possible, as health of its customers is something that should be important to any company.

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Just want to bump this thread again and say that this is something Bioware either should have considered before creating the content, or at least they should redesign it to be more accessible to all players. A settings toggle would be enough.

 

Why should they have bothered? It effects how many people? It's like banning balloons in school, because 1 kid is allergic to the plastic or white dust in them. Or banning all products with nuts in them at school, because one child at the school is allergic, when telling them "Stay away and don't eat this food" is all it really takes.

 

I'm not surprised BW didn't respond.

 

Sorry my suggestion for how to possibly fix it game wise didn't work. But seriously, I wouldn't blame BW for not taking into consideration something like this. And really, if they did, the animations/aesthics would likely be called out as being terrible.

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Why should they have bothered? It effects how many people? It's like banning balloons in school, because 1 kid is allergic to the plastic or white dust in them. Or banning all products with nuts in them at school, because one child at the school is allergic, when telling them "Stay away and don't eat this food" is all it really takes.

 

I'm not surprised BW didn't respond.

 

Sorry my suggestion for how to possibly fix it game wise didn't work. But seriously, I wouldn't blame BW for not taking into consideration something like this. And really, if they did, the animations/aesthics would likely be called out as being terrible.

 

It doesn't have to be changed for everyone. An option for it to be altered for those of us who do have issues would be awsome.

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