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30-54 bracket

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DaedalusV's Avatar


DaedalusV
02.25.2013 , 08:00 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by MadBernieSkills View Post
I have no evidence, just what they said. The argument was about people that are all tricked out at 50. The dev actually posted in this thread that everyone will be boosted to 55. So people that are geared at 50 aren't really going to have an advantage gear wise because everyone will be at 55 blue. Of course, they will have more abilities though.
I guess you could run into a few people that stop at 54 and have fully maxed out 54 gear. Maybe they will put a stop to that somehow.

My guess though is that they have put some thought into this and their plan is better than what we have currently. For example, a level 10 getting smashed by a geared 49.
The only real issue I see is that there won't be enough players in each bracket.
So what you are saying is that you have faith in the bolster system BW is going to implement. You believe the bolster system won't have any trouble bolstering any and all gear combinations people might roll with... A level 49 guy fully twinked will be bolstered up as much as a lvl 50 Min/max WH/EWH (same armour ratings as the lvl 55 pvp gear)
A lvl 30 guy fully twinked would be bolstered to the same level as the lvl 50 guy with end-game PvE stuff...

I am sorry, but I don't have your faith in the developer's choices.. Bolster has been broken on the test server since it got opened with patch 2.0 If they haven't fixed that yet, what is the point of having the test center?

I don't believe they will be able to make a bolster system work in the 30-54 bracket, I just don't see how they can extrapolate the stats fairly/correctly from such a hugely diverse level range and equipment range.

Having a 10-29 bracket will make that bracket starve out and will be dominated by the classes that mature early

the 30-54 bracket will be HELL for the classes that mature late (yeah some classes need a full 31 point build to be viable in pvp)

There's no reason whatsoever as to why the devs have chosen level 30 as the breaking point... It's completely random and arbitrary. I would like to see a dev reply with a logical reason for WHY they chose 30 and not a higher level..

10-40
41-54
55
or
10-44
45-54
55
makes alot more sense to me (IF you want to change the 10-49 bracket)

A level 30 guy has half the amount of talent points you have @ lvl 50 (21 vs 41)
How is that balanced? (yeah a lvl 10 guy is worse off vs a 49 guy but why repeat the mistakes done earlier?)
"you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Arwyn Sage Blitzkrieger Sentinel Sk'ye Guardian

Merras's Avatar


Merras
02.25.2013 , 08:05 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Yamahara View Post
No, because a lot of us who PvP do not PvE at all. Grinding for the gear from WZs is something to do for those who don't PvE. It isn't about the gear,I was able to roll many fully modded ewhs with WH gear before I got the better gear myself. It still has a lot to do with skill over expertise. Don't be lazy.
However the most viable solution to PVP problems is the removal of Expertise / PVP only gear. 2.0 would be a perfect patch to remove expertise.

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
02.25.2013 , 08:23 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Merras View Post
However the most viable solution to PVP problems is the removal of Expertise / PVP only gear. 2.0 would be a perfect patch to remove expertise.
That would require the high end PvP gear to be on a par with the high end PvE gear. PvPers would be able to entirely skip the intended PvE gear progression and just jump into the hardest available content right away and Bioware, obviously, doesn't want that - I'm almost sure that is part of the reason why the BiS PvE gear is of a much higher item level than the "new" PvP gear in 2.0. The far lower armour rating, min/max damage and Force Power/Tech Power on the PvP gear will make PvPers gimped in PvE content; Expertise gimps PvE gear in PvP content.

RobHinkle's Avatar


RobHinkle
02.25.2013 , 09:11 AM | #74 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by DaedalusV View Post
Well my point is that I see no logic at all in the 30-54 bracket choice. 40-54 maybe... 42 or 45-54 maybe... but 30?? It's such a strange choice..

the 10-29 bracket will be starved (you level a lot faster in those levels compared to later ones)
the 10-29 bracket will be ill-suited to prepare you for the 30-54 bracket (kiddie pool is very shallow, grown up one is too deep.)
Valid feedback, and something we continue to debate internally. When we talk about separating the playing population by hard lines, there are always 2 main concerns that often compete directly against each other: A)Can the players inside that bracket reasonably compete against each other, and B)Are there enough players in the bracket to keep wait times reasonably small.

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations (often because they've gotten a really important ability from a skill tree) and our data of who actually queues into Warzones has shown that we've got a good pool on each side of that break. We continue to analyze who is playing, however, so certainly if we ever feel like a particular PvP bracket is being starved we should make changes to it. Unfortunately, that's what we believe would happen with a 50 - 54 bracket. It might be populated initially, but would quickly become empty as players hit 55 and for everyone following the initial surge of levelers there would significantly increased wait times to get into PvP.

A number of players are concerned, reasonably I think, about the power differential between a fresh level 30 player and a current 50 player in augmented EWH gear being inside the same bracket. Our new bolster system should make those players reasonably competitive statistically, both with compensation for the lower items as well as some compensation for having fewer skill points/abilities (if you are lower level). Once we get this bolster bug fixed up, everyone should be able to see the kind of stats you are getting from the bolster and should give everyone a better basis for discussion.
Rob Hinkle | Lead System Designer
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MrSIlverSurfing's Avatar


MrSIlverSurfing
02.25.2013 , 10:02 AM | #75
We will check it out once PTS PVP is corrected. Thanks for the communication.

L-RANDLE's Avatar


L-RANDLE
02.25.2013 , 10:31 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by RobHinkle View Post
Valid feedback, and something we continue to debate internally. When we talk about separating the playing population by hard lines, there are always 2 main concerns that often compete directly against each other: A)Can the players inside that bracket reasonably compete against each other, and B)Are there enough players in the bracket to keep wait times reasonably small.

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations (often because they've gotten a really important ability from a skill tree) and our data of who actually queues into Warzones has shown that we've got a good pool on each side of that break. We continue to analyze who is playing, however, so certainly if we ever feel like a particular PvP bracket is being starved we should make changes to it. Unfortunately, that's what we believe would happen with a 50 - 54 bracket. It might be populated initially, but would quickly become empty as players hit 55 and for everyone following the initial surge of levelers there would significantly increased wait times to get into PvP.

A number of players are concerned, reasonably I think, about the power differential between a fresh level 30 player and a current 50 player in augmented EWH gear being inside the same bracket. Our new bolster system should make those players reasonably competitive statistically, both with compensation for the lower items as well as some compensation for having fewer skill points/abilities (if you are lower level). Once we get this bolster bug fixed up, everyone should be able to see the kind of stats you are getting from the bolster and should give everyone a better basis for discussion.
Does bolster work the same in the 55 bracket then? Also, since you are obviously going to have "bolster cutoffs", I don't see how a level 30 is going to be able to match a 54 in the current build on the PTS. I have examined the bolstering affect(not using the "bug") at level 55 when I was wearing legacy gear with level 35 purples, and it won't tread water to current 50's, let alone LVL 54. There really needs to be some transparency on this because I feel this is a tipping point for the PVP side. We need to get this right...

Can I also make another suggestion? On your level 55 PvP gear, the armor rating needs to match the new PvE gear armor ratings, especially if Bolster will affect anyone not wearing PVP gear. If I am mistaken on this, some insight would be helpful.

One last thing, thanks for chiming in... I think all the "regulars" here really needed some TLC whether it is actual game changes or just discussions from the Dev staff. We now are shedding our feelings of being alienated....
PvP Gear Viability? Read this first.
Tired of being broke? Stop being Felica and read this.
I'm not trying to be Rambo..... I'm trying to be Ray Tango

Laurreth's Avatar


Laurreth
02.25.2013 , 10:59 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by DaedalusV View Post
the 10-29 bracket will be ill-suited to prepare you for the 30-54 bracket (kiddie pool is very shallow, grown up one is too deep.)
Just to add my thought here, I don't think a pool that people eventually level out of is bad wrt the "kiddie/grown-up" thing. The problem is when a pool is stagnant by having people staying in it indefinitely. In WAR, things got so bad through the lack of a bolster system and an escalating gear ladder that it drove me into suggesting retiring characters at some point to generate churn. Anyway, people who are good at PvP and who play it a lot, or at least frequently, will go through their brackets relatively quickly (with 30-54 potentially taking a few weeks for the more casual players, and far longer for real casuals), so that "excessively good" players will hopefully be more of a novelty than a nuisance.

I for one find the 1049 bracket right now far more fun than the 50 pool, even when I was running my 20-something against decked out late-40s freak groups, and a good place to learn about the basics of your character. With the upcoming 3054, some people may not get to learn about their capstone skills too much before that, but it has a very good chance of presenting a better progression than the current "what the f▇▇▊ just happened" shellshock you inevitably get when entering your first level 50 warzone.

In that vein, IMO free2play players should get a few more warzones on their weekly allowance
I like how the whining about "censored" butts started instantly but it took 2 days for someone to notice the legs are also ****ed up rantboi

RobHinkle's Avatar


RobHinkle
02.25.2013 , 11:12 AM | #78 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Does bolster work the same in the 55 bracket then? Also, since you are obviously going to have "bolster cutoffs", I don't see how a level 30 is going to be able to match a 54 in the current build on the PTS. I have examined the bolstering affect(not using the "bug") at level 55 when I was wearing legacy gear with level 35 purples, and it won't tread water to current 50's, let alone LVL 54. There really needs to be some transparency on this because I feel this is a tipping point for the PVP side. We need to get this right...

Can I also make another suggestion? On your level 55 PvP gear, the armor rating needs to match the new PvE gear armor ratings, especially if Bolster will affect anyone not wearing PVP gear. If I am mistaken on this, some insight would be helpful.

One last thing, thanks for chiming in... I think all the "regulars" here really needed some TLC whether it is actual game changes or just discussions from the Dev staff. We now are shedding our feelings of being alienated....
Ya, the bolster will work for level 55s as well, if they are under geared. Could you post the stats on what you are seeing on PTS for your guy wearing legacy gear (or send the information to CommunitySupport@swtor.com, subject: ATTN Rob Hinkle, if you don't want to dirty up the thread). It certainly is the intention that your 55 wearing level 35 gear should get bolstered back up. To give everyone an idea (and BIG caveat here, this number is still in flux), but currently I would expect the new 55 bolster to be getting people into gear right around (statistically) non-augmented EWH.
Rob Hinkle | Lead System Designer
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Elfa's Avatar


Elfa
02.25.2013 , 11:20 AM | #79
You need to give free access to the F2P people for at least the 10-29 bracket. That will encourage more PVP play there at that level and grant more interest for them to sub in for the later tiers.
I'd like to sit down with the guy responsible for having Busta Rhymes fight Michael Myers in HALLOWEEN RESURRECTION. Then, before he could speak, I would slap him so hard his face would explode and his dog would die." - Jim Law

rlamela's Avatar


rlamela
02.25.2013 , 11:25 AM | #80
This is biowares biggest FAIL idea yet. You think people cry to much aboot premades now, wait until this goes live. (I will be joining the masses & grouping for normals now) Then think aboot the people who reach level 55 first. I mean there might not even be enough people to run a warzone. The 55 queue could be dead for a week or more depending on how fast people level.

Jenna'syyde