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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.24.2013 , 08:44 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Taleek View Post
I think there are far too many inconsistencies in Star Wars lore for this debate to have a real conclusion.
This is sadly true, but what we can do is try to filter through the conflicting pieces of canon, apply sound reasoning to the things we can observe, and make sense of the franchise that we all have grown so fond of.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.24.2013 , 09:10 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
And he surpassed them while giving in to the Dark Side more and more, thriving on the Clone Wars and his many battles. What does that say about the Jedi?
I don't see your point. Or maybe you don't see mine. Anakin Skywalker was ahead of most of the Jedi, even the ones who you believe to be hardened by war.

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By himself. Just one dude, training the next generation of Jedi, eh?
For an order of precognitive warriors, that seems quite short sighted, doesn't it?
You really think Cin Drallig was the only combat instructor? The Order had several combat instructors. Even Master Yoda was teaching young Jedi. If you will recall, he rarely left Corucsant.

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This was during the Clone Wars, the first experience with warfare in a millenium. Surely the Jedi had a more sustainable approach to training and running the Jedi Order during the days of more frequent warfare, especially when the Great Galactic War lasted 28 YEARS. That's older than Anakin Skywalker was when he became Darth Vader. The entire prequel trilogy could have been swallowed by this war.
You assume the Jedi have such an approach, but the Jedi had experienced 300 years of peace prior to the Great Galactic War. They were in the same position as the PT Order. The Jedi only had the time to properly train new students during the Cold War.

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I'm not sure that I do. Sparring is fine preparation, but there's only so much it can do for you. Learning "on the fly" is actually just testing your training, and gives a warrior the best possible insight into his abilities by testing him to the ultimate limit. This is not something that can ever be replicated by training.
Perhaps I didn't explain fully. While you can't simulate life or death situations to the fullest, sparring can give the Jedi insight into their own weaknesses. The more experienced Jedi can point out the weaknesses in the inferior one's form, and guide them in dealing with that weakness. With the proper training, a Jedi can develop their skills to fully master their chosen form to its highest extent.

In the case of Count Dooku, he had mastered Makashi to such an extent that he had eliminated the forms weakness to dealing with multiple opponents.


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George barely understands his own characters, let alone what constitutes rational motivations for them. Taken at face value, we can only assume that Yoda is one of the most arrogant Jedi alive.

He goes by himself to confront the Sith Lord who killed four other Jedi masters? He flat out rejects Obi-Wan's request to fight the emperor, and instead of saying "Why don't we team up on him and then go kill Darth Vader?" Yoda just heads off on his own to get the biggest smackdown of his life. So Yoda is neither wise nor a very humble Jedi. So much for those thousands of years of teaching, eh?
No need to insult the man. Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean you have to ignore what he has to say in HIS universe.

Now back to Yoda. He was the only one that had a chance to stop Palpatine, but they also couldn't ignore the newly annointed Darth Vader. How was it going to look when Yoda and Obi-Wan confront him? He's already distraught, and doesn't trust the Jedi. Obi-Wan was his friend, and had a chance to bring Anakin back. It's kind of like an intervention.

Not only that, but Palpatine could easily put Obi-Wan down.


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I think perhaps you're taking my specific thesis here and interpreting it in very broad strokes. The bottom line that I'm getting at is:
Jedi who frequently faced enemy lightsaber duelists would have developed superior skills to Jedi who did not have that experience.

Furthermore, the PT Era Jedi lacked these opportunities to hone their dueling skills, while Jedi who lived in the OR Era (or later eras, such as the NJO or Legacy) would have had ample experience with lightsaber combat.
Canon seems to prove your bottom line wrong. However, I'm not saying that the OR Jedi are inexperienced, but I am saying that the PT Jedi are simply better. This has been said by multiple canon sources, and proved in the lore.

In The Making of Revenge of The Sith, George Lucas says "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

Note that two members of the PT Order are capable of competing with the most powerful Sith to ever exist.


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I don't know about that, it certainly seems plausible that the Jedi became complacent and were more easily defeated because of it. Darth Malgus certainly seemed to think that the "cradle of power" had made the Jedi soft.
Because Malgus knows so much. Remember that the most powerful members of the Order at that time were away at Alderaan. He took advantage of the peace talks to attack the Jedi Temple. He caught the Jedi off guard, because they were under the impression that peace was being discussed. In fact, the Jedi were more concerned about the Sith making an attack on Alderaan than anything else.

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The Sith certainly didn't twiddle their thumbs. But there's no reason to suppose that two Sith, on their own, were going to be able to discover more about the Force than hundreds of Sith Lords studying and experimenting with it. They certainly discovered more nasty, dark secrets but it would have been quite slowly.
Except it is noted that the Sith had collected an impressive collection of Dark secrets, and Plagueis had discovered immortality. Obviously they had to start from scratch, but by the time Sidious rolls around, the Banite line had collected a vast archive of knowledge. And Sidious had studied it all.

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In short, I do not accept the premise that NOT fighting will somehow increase an organization's knowledge of combat.
I don't think you understand. The PT Jedi had access to the teachings of their predecessors, they learned from the past generations. This gave them great knowledge of the lightsaber forms. And remember that the Jedi weren't starting from scratch. Veterans of the New Sith Wars taught new Jedi, and these teachings passed down to new generations, and each generation made improvements to the forms.

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Where does it say that Yoda was preparing for war?
Also, it certainly seems like Yoda knew what the Banite Sith were all about. He is distinctly aware that there is always "a master and an apprentice" ... so he's clearly not expecting Malgus to swoop in with a dropship full of Sith Warriors. So I guess we're back to wondering if Yoda was senile, or just rather dense?


Which Jedi, exactly, were preparing for all out war with the Sith? As near as I can tell, the Jedi mostly believed that the Sith were extinct, but that if they did come back, it would be only two of them...
ROTS novelization says that Yoda had been preparing the Order to fight the last war.

And as to how Yoda knows about the Rule of Two. The Jedi were told by Kibh Jeen. The "Two there are, no more, no less." were his last words. Kibh was a fallen Jedi and his words were deemed the ravings of a madman by the Jedi Order. However, the Jedi began preparing for another war prior to the Battle of Naboo.

Now, concerning the "Sith have been extinct for a millenia". It should be noted that the Jedi Order tried to cover up the return on the Sith until they could properly analyze the situation. So we could assume that they were in denial or didn't expect the Sith so soon.

Personally, and this is my opinion, I believe that Yoda thought that the Sith were in hiding to prepare an army, as Kibh's death was over one hundred years before the Clone Wars.

But I suppose this debate will continue endlessly at this rate. Personally, I have seen this debate pop up so many times that I have grown tired of it. We have indisbutable facts that show that the most powerful members of the PT Order are some of the best of all time. We have an indisbutable fact that its Grand Master is the most powerful Jedi the Order had seen up to that point.

Again, I want to stress that the OR Jedi are not weak, but they are not as powerful or as skilled as their PT counterparts. Of course this isn't an absolute rule as there are exceptions, but that number is few.

Personally, I think that an OR knight could hold his own quite well against a PT Knight. Take your average Jedi Knight from both sides. The OR Knight would hold his own quite well, but the PT Knight would have more experience in the subtle nuances of lightsaber combat, as the average PT Knight will have studied multiple forms.

For me, I think I'm done with this particular debate, at least until I decide to rejoin the debate. But I don't see how this is going to be settled. Just remember that Jedi don't flourish during war, they flourish during peace times. This is most evident in the PT, but also in other eras. The TOR era Jedi saw a similar era of peace, though not to the same degree as the PT Jedi. I think that's the biggest point that you (among others) need to consider.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.24.2013 , 11:54 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post

For me, I think I'm done with this particular debate, at least until I decide to rejoin the debate. But I don't see how this is going to be settled. Just remember that Jedi don't flourish during war, they flourish during peace times. This is most evident in the PT, but also in other eras. The TOR era Jedi saw a similar era of peace, though not to the same degree as the PT Jedi. I think that's the biggest point that you (among others) need to consider.
Fair enough. I don't want this to get bogged down into a perpetual argument over PT vs. OR Jedi blah blah blah. I'm trying to address a very specific concept here, which is the experience and skill of duelists with lightsabers, and the factors that lead to their development.

From that initial thesis, several topics have spun off, all of which I am interested in discussing.
1. What were the Jedi doing when they weren't fighting the Sith?
- 1.1 Why does an organization with an aversion to warfare assume the mantle of Jedi Knights?
2. How do we justify new content that occurs in between already established canon?
- 2.1 Specifically, the Great Galactic War represents an entire era on par with either of the film trilogies.
- 2.2 Old statements by Lucas, etc. don't take into account newer developments/ideas.
3. (this one is just off the cusp) Why do the Jedi monopolize the education of Force Sensitives? We see an active attempt throughout the existence of the Jedi Order to suppress alternative Force Traditions. Is it illegal for other organizations to train their members who may be Force sensitive? What if the Jedi want to take your child for training and you object? I'm not sure these questions have been raised before... perhaps I'll put this in a different thread.

Anyhows, while I'm specifically addressing points that Aurbere raised/countered in this post, I would love for anyone else with an opinion to jump in and give their two cents, especially with any new topics that might creep into my post here. Please do not be intimidated if you only have a minor point to contribute and don't want to write a "mega-post" like some of us (not pointing fingers, but we know who we are) tend to.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
You assume the Jedi have such an approach, but the Jedi had experienced 300 years of peace prior to the Great Galactic War. They were in the same position as the PT Order. The Jedi only had the time to properly train new students during the Cold War.
Perhaps they did, and perhaps not. What I'm saying is that they must have had some way to sustain themselves throughout a war that lasted twenty-eight years. That's an order of magnitude longer than the Clone Wars were, and would necessitate adaptation. Many times in Star Wars we have to logically fill in the gaps left by the writers. After all, part of the beauty of Star Wars is that no one person has to think of everything in the galaxy. The fans and other writers frequently help to tie things together logically.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Because Malgus knows so much. Remember that the most powerful members of the Order at that time were away at Alderaan. He took advantage of the peace talks to attack the Jedi Temple. He caught the Jedi off guard, because they were under the impression that peace was being discussed. In fact, the Jedi were more concerned about the Sith making an attack on Alderaan than anything else.
Malgus' statement was referring to the beginning of the war. He didn't say "while you negotiated on Alderaan, we gathered out forces", he says "for 300 years..." The quote introduces the Great Galactic War, since it was first heard in the opening of the first trailer to ever showcase The Old Republic.

And I would take Malgus' opinion seriously here (strange, I know). He was a Sith Warrior, and fought the Jedi constantly. If anyone would know whether the Jedi were softened by their years of peace, it would be Malgus. He'd be a pretty good guy to ask about how the Jedi's fighting prowess adapted over the course of the war, maybe I can get an interview scheduled sometime...


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Perhaps I didn't explain fully. While you can't simulate life or death situations to the fullest, sparring can give the Jedi insight into their own weaknesses. The more experienced Jedi can point out the weaknesses in the inferior one's form, and guide them in dealing with that weakness. With the proper training, a Jedi can develop their skills to fully master their chosen form to its highest extent.

I don't think you understand. The PT Jedi had access to the teachings of their predecessors, they learned from the past generations. This gave them great knowledge of the lightsaber forms. And remember that the Jedi weren't starting from scratch. Veterans of the New Sith Wars taught new Jedi, and these teachings passed down to new generations, and each generation made improvements to the forms.
You are entirely correct that training is crucial to building the foundations of a skilled swordsman, or any combatant for that matter. I am hardly suggesting throwing half-trained Padawans into the fray of battle. Practice and sparring will build the technical skills necessary to become a good duelist.

What I am talking about are the steps after you've learned the basics. The Jedi Knights and Masters who actually fight lethal duels against trained Sith will be the ones who develop good combat instincts.

There is so much more to winning an engagement than being a technical master of a lightsaber form, or even all seven. Knowing something and knowing how to apply it are two different realms. There is an intuitive leap that must be made between the formal instruction in combat techniques, and the instincts to use them effectively.

Please allow me to be clear, there are two phases in the development of an expert combatant. The first consists of showing him the skills he will use on the battlefield, and the second consists of actually practicing those skills himself, in the heat of battle. These two phases will alternate, and a combatant will continually improve between battles and engagements, absorbing his experience and supplementing it with further practice to sharpen his skills.

The PT Era Jedi can only progress up to a certain point without experiencing combat. The sparring among fellow Jedi is part of learning the fundamentals of the forms, but it cannot stand in as a substitute for experience. Similarly, the Jedi cannot "revolutionize" the fighting forms during 1000 years of peace. They remained almost completely unchanged between Ruusan and the Clone Wars, because they were stagnant. It wasn't until Mace Windu (an extremely unconventional Jedi) that any further developments were made to the forms.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Now back to Yoda. He was the only one that had a chance to stop Palpatine, but they also couldn't ignore the newly annointed Darth Vader. How was it going to look when Yoda and Obi-Wan confront him? He's already distraught, and doesn't trust the Jedi. Obi-Wan was his friend, and had a chance to bring Anakin back. It's kind of like an intervention.
Not only that, but Palpatine could easily put Obi-Wan down.
No need to insult the man. Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean you have to ignore what he has to say in HIS universe.
It's nothing personal, I'm rather fond of George Lucas. He has a great imagination and his vision of a sci-fi universe sparked something truly remarkable. However, his strengths lie in envisioning technology and starships, exotic locations and so forth. He has practically no ability to write believable characters when left to his own devices, and does not often reason out the ramifications that many things have within his own stories.

While it may be "his" universe, Star Wars has grown far beyond the vision of any one man. It was his stories that started it all, but at this point the Star Wars universe has a life of its own. His statements made during the filming of Episode 3 could not possibly take into account any of the events or characters during the Great Galactic War because... no one had thought of it yet. Bane's story had not been told in great detail, and many other things didn't exist either. So we as the fans and audience have to read into the lore and make new determinations to collate conflicting pieces of information together, at least until it is firmly codified in new pieces of Star Wars media.

But yes, back to Yoda. Or rather, back to Obi-Wan. He of all people should know better than to confront a Sith Lord alone. I seem to recall:
"We'll take him together, you go in slowly on the left..."
"No, I'm taking him now!"

Because that worked out so well. But wait, next time it worked much better!
"This time, we'll do it together."
So when Yoda proposes splitting up, you would think Obi-Wan (who's supposedly a pretty good General at this point as well) would say something like, "Wait, Yoda! That's not how divide and conquer works, you've got it backwards!" Rather than take the opportunity to confront the two Sith individually when they'll have the numerical advantage, they blunder in like... well, like a reckless Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones.

EDIT: I just remembered that Obi-Wan's experience with this goes back even further. Part of the reason that Qui-Gon Jinn was killed was because Maul managed to separate him and Obi-Wan. Seriously, Obi-Wan's entire psyche should be screaming out against this brilliant plan to split up.

And, yes, Obi-Wan is not good enough to challenge the Emperor, but it would certainly tip the scales in Yoda's favor to have an ally with him. After all, Master Kenobi is one of the finest warriors in the Jedi Order, capable of sparring with Mace Windu. He'd probably be pretty darn useful in that fight.

Teamwork is another thing that war is supposed to teach you. On a battlefield, you don't stand much chance alone, but working with your squadmates, or other allies, you are able to wreak havoc on the enemy. You watch each other's backs, gang up on individual enemies, and generally support each other in combat (Gosh, I can't think of when SWTOR players would ever team up to take on adversaries they can't handle alone...)

This is what I mean by Mr. Lucas not thinking out the actions of his characters very well. The actions of two of the wisest Jedi in the order. Two generals, who've been coordinating the Republic's armies for three years. Right, those guys.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
And as to how Yoda knows about the Rule of Two. The Jedi were told by Kibh Jeen. The "Two there are, no more, no less." were his last words. Kibh was a fallen Jedi and his words were deemed the ravings of a madman by the Jedi Order. However, the Jedi began preparing for another war prior to the Battle of Naboo.
Personally, and this is my opinion, I believe that Yoda thought that the Sith were in hiding to prepare an army, as Kibh's death was over one hundred years before the Clone Wars.
You are entitled to your opinion. That's part of the beauty of Star Wars, we can argue over things until we figure them out because it doesn't all add up. That's almost part of the fun, fitting the puzzle pieces of this exciting universe together.
However, it makes no bloody sense Yoda would take stock in the ravings of a madman who died a century ago. It's his first reaction, not some theory that he eventually begins to consider. He and Mace straight up declare that there are always two Sith. They are clearly entirely aware of the Rule of Two, and so it should figure prominently into their planning.
(I'd appreciate a response from Aurbere on this point, since it's not related to the main debate per se, but raises some interesting questions nonetheless. The ball's in your court, Historian. You have made me quite curious)

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Personally, I think that an OR knight could hold his own quite well against a PT Knight. Take your average Jedi Knight from both sides. The OR Knight would hold his own quite well, but the PT Knight would have more experience in the subtle nuances of lightsaber combat, as the average PT Knight will have studied multiple forms.
Eh, this is kind of missing the point of what I'm saying. Both knights would have studied the forms to an equal degree, since they're the same in both eras (except Vapaad, but only two Jedi were instructed in that, so it's not relevant). The point that I make is that the subtle nuances of combat cannot be learned without experience. It's something that cannot be taught. It can be discussed, and advice can be given, but the actual personal intuition and instincts must come from experience. I cannot stress this enough, as it is central to everything I am saying about lightsaber combat here.


And in case you're wondering, you're not suddenly going color blind. I decided to start using a blue font because white got boring.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.25.2013 , 12:50 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
Im not denying that Bane wasnt powerful (although in your defense i made it sound like i viewed him as such). What im saying was that the Brotherhood was so weak that Bane had alot of catching up to do in restoring sith strength. He did become quite powerful, (id put him on par with Darth Revan) but his Banite line made sure each new sith would be stronger than the last including himself. Thus making him the weakest sith in his own line.

Or at least, it did until they started killing each other in their sleep...
That's the problem with relying on your Sith successors to be selflessly devoted to creating apprentices stronger than themselves....
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.25.2013 , 03:06 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post

Or at least, it did until they started killing each other in their sleep...
That's the problem with relying on your Sith successors to be selflessly devoted to creating apprentices stronger than themselves....
My color has been stolen... I mourn it loss.

On a happier note, Vent, I think (and correct me if I'm wrong Aurbere) that Aurbere is attempting to convey a 'Star Wars' truth using 'Earth' reasoning and the two are not always compatible. This is one such instance. In our common reasoning on earth, we know experience hones a soldier's reflexes and instincts. But by 'Star Wars' reasoning, when a Jedi gets 'experience' in war, it weakens him and wears on him due to his force connection (something we cannot experience). A non-force user lacks this weariness and is thus unaffected by 'experience'. A Darkside user even feeds on this 'experience' to drive himself forward, and it corrupts him even more.

Try and think of it as all Jedi being more susceptible to PTSD than non force users. They are much more likely to break or falter (fall to the darkside) and keeping themselves together takes a toll on them an their abilities.

On the other hand, a PT Jedi at peace has trained AND learned to control himself. He practices long and often and has none of the emotional baggage and dulled power of a worn, battle hardened warrior.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

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Blackholeskipper
02.25.2013 , 04:19 AM | #56
Spoiler

I bow before thee, lore-master!

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.25.2013 , 12:18 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Fair enough. I don't want this to get bogged down into a perpetual argument over PT vs. OR Jedi blah blah blah. I'm trying to address a very specific concept here, which is the experience and skill of duelists with lightsabers, and the factors that lead to their development.

From that initial thesis, several topics have spun off, all of which I am interested in discussing.
1. What were the Jedi doing when they weren't fighting the Sith?
- 1.1 Why does an organization with an aversion to warfare assume the mantle of Jedi Knights?
2. How do we justify new content that occurs in between already established canon?
- 2.1 Specifically, the Great Galactic War represents an entire era on par with either of the film trilogies.
- 2.2 Old statements by Lucas, etc. don't take into account newer developments/ideas.
3. (this one is just off the cusp) Why do the Jedi monopolize the education of Force Sensitives? We see an active attempt throughout the existence of the Jedi Order to suppress alternative Force Traditions. Is it illegal for other organizations to train their members who may be Force sensitive? What if the Jedi want to take your child for training and you object? I'm not sure these questions have been raised before... perhaps I'll put this in a different thread.

Anyhows, while I'm specifically addressing points that Aurbere raised/countered in this post, I would love for anyone else with an opinion to jump in and give their two cents, especially with any new topics that might creep into my post here. Please do not be intimidated if you only have a minor point to contribute and don't want to write a "mega-post" like some of us (not pointing fingers, but we know who we are) tend to.
Alright, let's address some of these points.

1. The Jedi were keeping the peace throughout the galaxy. Going off on missions to settle disputes or put an end to 'law-breakers' and their ilk. Their actions included fighting in the Yinchorri Uprising and the Stark Hyperspace Wars.

But they were also expanding their knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Peace times are excellent times to broaden knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Veterans of the New Sith Wars passed on their knowledge of the lightsaber forms, allowing the Jedi to learn from their predecessors and pass these teachings down to other generations. The forms were also expanded upon.

Knights are typically guardians when it comes to Star Wars. They are defenders of the Republic. It's just that war has adverse effects on a Jedi (as has been mentioned before).

2. Previous statements by George Lucas remain in effect until either he or Leland Chee retracts them. So Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever, and the PT Jedi Order is the Golden Age of the Jedi.

3. I don't think they monopolize Force sensitivity, at least that's not how I see it. Let's take the Baran Do for example. While the Jedi to take some Kel Dor for training, the more traditionalist Kel Dor families send their children to learn from the Baran Do Sages. Training isn't illegal for other organizations, but I assume the Jedi would just like to keep tabs on everything to prevent any sort of devastation by rogue Force users. But that's my opinion.


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You are entirely correct that training is crucial to building the foundations of a skilled swordsman, or any combatant for that matter. I am hardly suggesting throwing half-trained Padawans into the fray of battle. Practice and sparring will build the technical skills necessary to become a good duelist.

What I am talking about are the steps after you've learned the basics. The Jedi Knights and Masters who actually fight lethal duels against trained Sith will be the ones who develop good combat instincts.

There is so much more to winning an engagement than being a technical master of a lightsaber form, or even all seven. Knowing something and knowing how to apply it are two different realms. There is an intuitive leap that must be made between the formal instruction in combat techniques, and the instincts to use them effectively.

Please allow me to be clear, there are two phases in the development of an expert combatant. The first consists of showing him the skills he will use on the battlefield, and the second consists of actually practicing those skills himself, in the heat of battle. These two phases will alternate, and a combatant will continually improve between battles and engagements, absorbing his experience and supplementing it with further practice to sharpen his skills.

The PT Era Jedi can only progress up to a certain point without experiencing combat. The sparring among fellow Jedi is part of learning the fundamentals of the forms, but it cannot stand in as a substitute for experience. Similarly, the Jedi cannot "revolutionize" the fighting forms during 1000 years of peace. They remained almost completely unchanged between Ruusan and the Clone Wars, because they were stagnant. It wasn't until Mace Windu (an extremely unconventional Jedi) that any further developments were made to the forms.
The forms were revolutionized during the 1000 year peace. Bane believed that the Jedi would stagnate, while the Sith grew in power and skill, but he was wrong. The Jedi advanced just as much as the Sith did. The Jedi didn't just sit around. They actively developed the lightsaber forms. While you are correct that dueling forms like Makashi went out of style, the Jedi still practised and mastered forms that could be used against lightsaber wielding opponents.

Answer me this: if combat experience is so important, why did the 1000 years of peace produce some of the greatest duelists to ever live? Every source will tell you that many of the PT Jedi were the best in their chosen form. How can that be if they have no combat experience? Suffice to say, combat experience isn't as important for a Jedi as it would be for a Sith or soldier.


Quote:

But yes, back to Yoda. Or rather, back to Obi-Wan. He of all people should know better than to confront a Sith Lord alone. I seem to recall:
"We'll take him together, you go in slowly on the left..."
"No, I'm taking him now!"

Because that worked out so well. But wait, next time it worked much better!
"This time, we'll do it together."
So when Yoda proposes splitting up, you would think Obi-Wan (who's supposedly a pretty good General at this point as well) would say something like, "Wait, Yoda! That's not how divide and conquer works, you've got it backwards!" Rather than take the opportunity to confront the two Sith individually when they'll have the numerical advantage, they blunder in like... well, like a reckless Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones.

EDIT: I just remembered that Obi-Wan's experience with this goes back even further. Part of the reason that Qui-Gon Jinn was killed was because Maul managed to separate him and Obi-Wan. Seriously, Obi-Wan's entire psyche should be screaming out against this brilliant plan to split up.

And, yes, Obi-Wan is not good enough to challenge the Emperor, but it would certainly tip the scales in Yoda's favor to have an ally with him. After all, Master Kenobi is one of the finest warriors in the Jedi Order, capable of sparring with Mace Windu. He'd probably be pretty darn useful in that fight.

Teamwork is another thing that war is supposed to teach you. On a battlefield, you don't stand much chance alone, but working with your squadmates, or other allies, you are able to wreak havoc on the enemy. You watch each other's backs, gang up on individual enemies, and generally support each other in combat (Gosh, I can't think of when SWTOR players would ever team up to take on adversaries they can't handle alone...)

This is what I mean by Mr. Lucas not thinking out the actions of his characters very well. The actions of two of the wisest Jedi in the order. Two generals, who've been coordinating the Republic's armies for three years. Right, those guys.
Well let's go over this. While Obi-Wan would be of great help in the battle against the Emperor, there is still a very high chance that he would be killed. As it is noted in the ROTS novelization, as the duel between Yoda and Sidious comes to a close, Yoda has been pushed to his limits, while Sidious hsa not reached that point.

Think of it this way. If they both went off to face the Emperor, they could both be killed, leaving the galaxy in eternal darkness. By splitting up, they ensure that at least one of them will survive. Yoda believed that Obi-Wan could beat Anakin, but he would be no match for Sidious. Yoda had to ensure the survival of one of them. By sending Obi-Wan to face Anakin, he ensured that at least one of them would survive. However, the battle ended in a gamble, with Obi-Wan being the victor.

I do think it would have been wise for them to face the Emperor together, but the chance for failure was still too high. But their would be the chance for success, just not a very high one. Sidious could destroy Obi-Wan with ease if he wished to.


Quote:
You are entitled to your opinion. That's part of the beauty of Star Wars, we can argue over things until we figure them out because it doesn't all add up. That's almost part of the fun, fitting the puzzle pieces of this exciting universe together.
However, it makes no bloody sense Yoda would take stock in the ravings of a madman who died a century ago. It's his first reaction, not some theory that he eventually begins to consider. He and Mace straight up declare that there are always two Sith. They are clearly entirely aware of the Rule of Two, and so it should figure prominently into their planning.
(I'd appreciate a response from Aurbere on this point, since it's not related to the main debate per se, but raises some interesting questions nonetheless. The ball's in your court, Historian. You have made me quite curious)
Remember that they learned of the Rule of Two from Kibh Jeen, a fallen Jedi. It was considered the ravings of a madman, but they eventually discussed the return of the Sith before the Battle of Naboo. Remember that Mace Windu also says "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." So Mace Windu and Yoda knew the Sith would return, but then Ki-Adi Mundi says that it is impossible. It is confusing.

However, this also explains why only Yoda and Mace Windu can compete with Palpatine (in the words of George Lucas), as they may be the only ones who had been preparing. Of course none of this is canon fact (except for what Lucas just said), so I'm theorizing here.

But also remember that the Golden Age produced some of the greatest duelists of all time. So even if the above theory is correct (which I doubt as it has been said that Yoda was preparing the Order for a war with the Sith), combat experience isn't necessary to produce master duelists.

Also, what StarSquirrel said.

Combat experience isn't the same for Jedi as it is for everyone else. War affects Jedi in a bad way. They lose touch with The Force. The Force isn't a simple component of lightsaber combat, it is intertwined with lightsaber combat. The Force gives the Jedi the enhanced reflexes to dodge and block attacks with almost lightning fast reflexes.

But then you ask, why fight in wars then? Because they have to. It is their role as Guardians of The Republic and Keepers of the Peace to fight those who would disrupt it. It is their sworn duty.

But then why aren't Jedi falling to the Dark Side during the Clone Wars? Well Jedi did fall, just not that many. The Clone Wars is a different kind of war, against an enemy never fought before- droids. Jedi feel the emotions of those around, and react to them. Droids do not have emotions, and their destruction has no effect on the Living Force, therefore a Jedi has little to worry about in terms of losing connection to the Light.

^This bit is just in response to the whole 'war is bad for the Jedi' discussion.

I think what you need to understand is that combat experience works differently for a Jedi than it does for a Sith or regular soldier. Sith are your standard soldier. They are always learning and feeding off of the combat. Jedi are not like that. While you could say that they learn from combat as well, but it is not combat that strengthens a Jedi. Peace times give strength to the Jedi, war strengthens the Sith.

The nature of the Light Side is to be at peace. As followers of the Light, the Jedi share the same traits. I think that is what you need to understand.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.25.2013 , 01:07 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
My color has been stolen... I mourn it loss.
They do say imitation is the highest form of flattery.


Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
On a happier note, Vent, I think (and correct me if I'm wrong Aurbere) that Aurbere is attempting to convey a 'Star Wars' truth using 'Earth' reasoning and the two are not always compatible. This is one such instance. In our common reasoning on earth, we know experience hones a soldier's reflexes and instincts. But by 'Star Wars' reasoning, when a Jedi gets 'experience' in war, it weakens him and wears on him due to his force connection (something we cannot experience). A non-force user lacks this weariness and is thus unaffected by 'experience'. A Darkside user even feeds on this 'experience' to drive himself forward, and it corrupts him even more.

Try and think of it as all Jedi being more susceptible to PTSD than non force users. They are much more likely to break or falter (fall to the darkside) and keeping themselves together takes a toll on them an their abilities.

On the other hand, a PT Jedi at peace has trained AND learned to control himself. He practices long and often and has none of the emotional baggage and dulled power of a worn, battle hardened warrior.
I guess this brings me back to the questions of:
Why would the Jedi spend so much time training for battle if it's the one thing he's trying to avoid since it will weaken and corrupt him? It's basically the opposite of playing to your strengths.
Also, it simply doesn't make sense that warrior-monks who are supposed to have greater mental focus and strength (to quote the great Obi-Wan again, "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded" , implying that Jedi should not be weak minded) will be worn down more easily by adversity and conflict. It seems to just run contrary to human nature.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Frog_brains's Avatar


Frog_brains
02.25.2013 , 01:17 PM | #59
ok just to add some more confusion to the fire. In Ep 1 we hear yoda and windu in th council chambers talking about how the jedi were loosing their connection with the force, and how the coming of the chosen one "anakin" would be the re-balancing of the force. Supposely reinforcing the jedi's ability to use the force. Master Yoda was very concerned that he wan't able to sense the rising of this new threat from the Sith. It seems like at this time the jedi were running into a situation that the rakatta ran into in this game a force sensitive race that was loosing its ability to control the force. So at a time now that yes maybe the actual technical aspects of lightsaber and force combat have evolved, would the loss of conection to the force offset any technical improvements in technique?

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.25.2013 , 01:43 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
They do say imitation is the highest form of flattery.
Why thank you! And your color is actually slightly different than mine apparently, so I'm not so broken up now

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
I guess this brings me back to the questions of:
Why would the Jedi spend so much time training for battle if it's the one thing he's trying to avoid since it will weaken and corrupt him? It's basically the opposite of playing to your strengths.
"a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never attack" -Yoda

Ah, now this is rather easily explained. Why does any peace loving people arm themselves and train to fight? Because there is always an enemy who wishes to destroy them. Remember "The Jedi where the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..." -Ben Kenobi. It may weaken them in the long run (if they actually have to fight), hence why they're such avid proponents of negotiation, but they'll still have to fight whenever the sith are around because they are the only ones who can stop the sith. The PT era Jedi get thousands of years of peace to train without the weariness of war. If they where at war for a thousand years, they'd be weaker.


Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Also, it simply doesn't make sense that warrior-monks who are supposed to have greater mental focus and strength (to quote the great Obi-Wan again, "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded" , implying that Jedi should not be weak minded) will be worn down more easily by adversity and conflict.
You're using 'earth' reasoning again. We cannot feel the force and so it is difficult to understand the concept. However through reading the force-using character's thoughts and seeing the results of their actions, we know that war has a negative impact on the Light Side of the Force (the force as a whole really). Due to the hyper-sensitivity jedi have to the force. Imagine every time you killed, you could feel it. Every time a friend or enemy died you felt their life blink out of existence and you could feel the emotions of that soldier you are about to stab. The constant waves of fear, anger, grief ect... will wear you down. **Disclaimer- I'm trying to give you a sense of what the force feels like, but I certainly dont do it justice, its like everything I've said time ten.

Weak mindedness (and the mind tricks to which Kenobi was referring to in that quote) has nothing to do with this... that's more an issue of the person's species and base intelligence, you're either born susceptible or not, though you can train your mind to become stronger. I have yet to see an example of how someone with a strong mind get tired and someone uses a mink trick on him. In reference to my statement, a jedi shouldn't be weak minded yes, but that's what happens when they 'break' (fall to the darkside)

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
It seems to just run contrary to human nature.
'Earth' reasoning here. You should let go of concepts like 'human nature' in topics regarding the force, as the force has its own nature that overrides the human one.

edit: just had a thought! Think of how many Jedi went to the Dark Side in OR and how many went Dark Side on PT, you'll find many more fallen Jedi in the war-torn periods.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus