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Thoughts on 2.0 changes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Thoughts on 2.0 changes

Marb's Avatar


Marb
02.23.2013 , 12:36 AM | #11
Its a bit of a bummer with alacrity, they are making it an attractive stat at the same time as making shield rating even more attractive. I'm not sure if trading shield for alacrity would be worth it, unless they have done something crazy to cap the returns you can get from shield rating (I doubt that).

Its really funny to see it on the stock tank arkanian gear, along with accuracy.
Harbinger

ajoram's Avatar


ajoram
02.23.2013 , 02:58 AM | #12
Having had a look at the new talent trees, I strongly doubt that Assassins and Juggernauts will be viable anymore regarding the massive buffs that Powertechs are receiving. Assassins have always had the lowest armor and no longer receive the 20% bonus armor from their skill tree as of no, while Juggernauts lose a bunch of defense but they also get some armor rating which is nice.

Powertechs however are totally through the roof though. Self heals, better cooldowns (Kolto OVerload, Oil Slick, Energy Shield all improved in some way) and a crazy ability that grants 25% shield absorption most of the time are just insane - especially since they are considered the best tanks already.

Too bad I prefer lightsabre tanking. :/

JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
02.23.2013 , 03:49 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ajoram View Post
Having had a look at the new talent trees, I strongly doubt that Assassins and Juggernauts will be viable anymore regarding the massive buffs that Powertechs are receiving. Assassins have always had the lowest armor and no longer receive the 20% bonus armor from their skill tree as of no, while Juggernauts lose a bunch of defense but they also get some armor rating which is nice.

Powertechs however are totally through the roof though. Self heals, better cooldowns (Kolto OVerload, Oil Slick, Energy Shield all improved in some way) and a crazy ability that grants 25% shield absorption most of the time are just insane - especially since they are considered the best tanks already.

Too bad I prefer lightsabre tanking. :/
I'm unsure whether the change to Kolto Overload is a buff or not.

It makes for a great *emergency* cooldown, but as something that won't trigger unless you drop below 30% health, it's not going to make a healer's job easier unless something goes seriously wrong. Beforehand, it was essentially free healing for 15% of your health on cooldown, which was less work for the healer.

Oil Slick - again, not sure if that's a buff or not. On the one hand, it'll now apply to any mob that pulls into the area after it's used. On the other hand, it *won't* apply to a mob that has moved out of the area after it casts, and it used to stay on them.

I do like the new Heat Blast and the change to how Heat Screen is granted. Heat Screen now only stacks to 3 instead of 4, though, and you can't put a 2nd skill point into it to provide 2% absorb per stack instead of 1%.

The change to Heat Blast is certainly a mitigation increase, but it also puts Vanguards more in line with other tanks - periodic mitigation buffs instead of a smooth, continual mitigation once 4 stacks are up.

midakg's Avatar


midakg
02.23.2013 , 08:14 AM | #14
Guys what do you think will happen to stats now? Are stats 30/50/50 still goal for jugg or not?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.23.2013 , 02:45 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by ajoram View Post
Assassins have always had the lowest armor and no longer receive the 20% bonus armor from their skill tree as of no
The loss of 20% armor when you're already packing 115% from tanking stance doesn't really do much. Stasis accounts for all of 1-2% K/E DR so it's not much of a loss, especially when you compare it to the Shield changes and Kinetic Bulwark. As such, you might interpret the loss of the additional armor as a nerf, but, in reality, the changes as a whole are a pretty substantial buff.

Quote:
, while Juggernauts lose a bunch of defense but they also get some armor rating which is nice.
Once again, you're overstating the value of that armor buff. It's nice, but the bigger changes are the changes to outright damage reduction (Guard Slash is going to provide a 3% DR buff) and threat generation (*way* more Riposte, better Focus management, better damage on Guard Slash), not to mention Guard/Juggs getting Saber Reflect which is going to be *amazing*.

I'm actually starting to get worried about a lot of the Guardian changes. They're getting substantial reductions to their CDs (180 seconds down to 150 seconds for both Warding Call and Saber Ward), and a number of previously specific buffs to mitigation stats are becoming global: Blade Barricade is now being added to both Defense and Resistance chances and Guardian Slash is being applied to K/E and I/E DR (Inner Peace is also being improved substantially). As such, if these changes are left alone, Guardians will have a 5% Resistance chance compared to 2% for the other tanks and 25% I/E D/R compared to 23% for Shadows and 20% for VGs.

Quote:
Powertechs however are totally through the roof though. Self heals, better cooldowns (Kolto OVerload, Oil Slick, Energy Shield all improved in some way) and a crazy ability that grants 25% shield absorption most of the time are just insane - especially since they are considered the best tanks already.
The primary weakness of VG/PT tanks has *always* been that they have bad CDs. The changes are simply modifying that so that they're more useful now, which is perfectly acceptable as I see it. The Oil Slick change is a bit too strong, imo, but I have a feel that the fact that it's a location ability now rather than a static debuff is going to impede its usefulness substantially, not to mention that it only affects M/R attacks. I strongly suspect that F/T K/E attacks are going to be *way* more common nowadays thanks to the change to shield generators.

The addition of a 25% increase to Abs from Energy Blast is one of the two things that I'm worried about. The uptime ratio on it coupled with the massive size of that buff honestly makes me think that the number is going to be reduced significantly by the time the patch/xpac is released. The second is that VG tanks, since they rely so little on Defense and have so much Shield/Abs and passive DR, might become *way* too powerful in any tanking situation that doesn't involve I/E damage: they have the best K/E DR by a pretty substantial margin *and* are pretty much tied with Shadows on the amount of Shield and Absorb they pack. As such, with the shield changes, they're getting the best of both world with regards to K/E attacks: the best DR *and* amazing Shield/Abs.

Remember, the changes we're currently seeing are still in the testing phase. They're subject to change, especially if we poke holes in them.
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periphelion's Avatar


periphelion
02.23.2013 , 07:14 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Once again, you're overstating the value of that armor buff. It's nice, but the bigger changes are the changes to outright damage reduction (Guard Slash is going to provide a 3% DR buff) and threat generation (*way* more Riposte, better Focus management, better damage on Guard Slash), not to mention Guard/Juggs getting Saber Reflect which is going to be *amazing*.

I'm actually starting to get worried about a lot of the Guardian changes. They're getting substantial reductions to their CDs (180 seconds down to 150 seconds for both Warding Call and Saber Ward), and a number of previously specific buffs to mitigation stats are becoming global: Blade Barricade is now being added to both Defense and Resistance chances and Guardian Slash is being applied to K/E and I/E DR (Inner Peace is also being improved substantially). As such, if these changes are left alone, Guardians will have a 5% Resistance chance compared to 2% for the other tanks and 25% I/E D/R compared to 23% for Shadows and 20% for VGs.
Yea, I think now that this changes are going to push guardian tanks to the top of the heap. They now beat out shadows for best CDs - saber reflect is going to be at worse slightly worse than resilience, and the combined lowered cooldowns to their existing CDs beat out deflection. Also, just cursory looking at the new stats formulas suggests that defense is going to give much better point for point return on mitigation compared to live, which also benefits guardian tanks.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The primary weakness of VG/PT tanks has *always* been that they have bad CDs. The changes are simply modifying that so that they're more useful now, which is perfectly acceptable as I see it. The Oil Slick change is a bit too strong, imo, but I have a feel that the fact that it's a location ability now rather than a static debuff is going to impede its usefulness substantially, not to mention that it only affects M/R attacks. I strongly suspect that F/T K/E attacks are going to be *way* more common nowadays thanks to the change to shield generators.

The addition of a 25% increase to Abs from Energy Blast is one of the two things that I'm worried about. The uptime ratio on it coupled with the massive size of that buff honestly makes me think that the number is going to be reduced significantly by the time the patch/xpac is released. The second is that VG tanks, since they rely so little on Defense and have so much Shield/Abs and passive DR, might become *way* too powerful in any tanking situation that doesn't involve I/E damage: they have the best K/E DR by a pretty substantial margin *and* are pretty much tied with Shadows on the amount of Shield and Absorb they pack. As such, with the shield changes, they're getting the best of both world with regards to K/E attacks: the best DR *and* amazing Shield/Abs.
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I'm not so certain about this to be honest. The smoke grenade / riot gas buff isn't as great as it seems with the duration decreasing from 18s to 15s and with it being bound to a location. On the passive mitigation front, Vanguards lost the 6% shield chance, 8% permanent power screen, in exchange for 4% defense and 25% absorb with 50% uptime (and nearly 50% uptime on a 3% absorb). This averages out to roughly +4% defense, -6% shield, and +7.5% absorb. This looks like a net gain, but as I mentioned, I think shield / absorb are getting nerfed relative to defense for pure weapon damage. There can be some pretty amazing uses with timing this with the absorb proc relic and oil slick for maximum gain, however.

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
02.23.2013 , 10:03 PM | #17
Went and did a HM FP on the PTS, the amount of healing required has increased substantially, which is expected since the healers can heal more as well.

The biggest issue is mobs with small, multiple attacks as oppose to those with single big hits. Your dark ward can disappear very quickly, so you're effective at 40% shield most of the fight. This is where I think Bioware messed up : since you cannot absorb unless you shield, it will not save you from unmitigated attacks. Losing 10% from defense makes you take a lot more unmitigated attacks.

Even in HM FPs, get used to kiting. It'll be the best mitigation strategy by far.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.23.2013 , 11:33 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by periphelion View Post
Yea, I think now that this changes are going to push guardian tanks to the top of the heap. They now beat out shadows for best CDs - saber reflect is going to be at worse slightly worse than resilience, and the combined lowered cooldowns to their existing CDs beat out deflection. Also, just cursory looking at the new stats formulas suggests that defense is going to give much better point for point return on mitigation compared to live, which also benefits guardian tanks.
The CD changes aren't perturbing me as much as they *should*, probably because Battle Readiness is turning into the king of all CDs: 25% additive DR, 15% heal, 35% increased proc chance (meaning 100% with CT while it's active), and 100% increase healing and damage from Techniques for 15 seconds. It's going to provide the same survivability contributions as Reactive Shield or Warding Call *and* it increases healing *and* damage.

My primary worry is that the combination of the shorter recharge times on the already impressive Guardian CDs combined with a potentially *stronger* version of Resilience (since it affects ranged as well as F/T attacks and reflects the damage back with a similar CD) is going to eke some of the uniqueness of the Shadow away (while also being potentially overpowered because of all of the other various surv and threat buffs): Shadows were always the CD based tanks; Saber Reflect + shorter CDs starts to impede on that role while still maintaining the Guardian uniqueness.

Quote:
On the passive mitigation front, Vanguards lost the 6% shield chance, 8% permanent power screen, in exchange for 4% defense and 25% absorb with 50% uptime (and nearly 50% uptime on a 3% absorb)
Power Screen should *easily* be able to be managed at 3 stacks with more than 50% uptime unless the EB buff specifically prevents the Power Screen stacks from being generated (which isn't mentioned anywhere so I doubt it): since Power Screen activates every time you dodge, parry, or shield (and, remember, the only stuff that can't be shielded is I/E damage attacks and DoTs), you should be able to regenerate the 3 stacks of Power Screen plenty fast enough to maintain more than a 50% uptime (I expect EB to be on a roughly 10 sec use cycle thanks to Power Screen procs, which means you'll average 1.5% abs from Power screen for ~7 seconds and 3% for 3 more seconds is going to average out to roughly ~2% absorb over time).

Either way, Power Screen isn't really what I'm worried about; it's Energy Blast: an Absorb buff of that size with such an impressive uptime combined with the already impressive shield, absorb, and passive K/E DR of a VG have the potential to be pretty overpowered, especially considering the buffs to Shield Generators.
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periphelion's Avatar


periphelion
02.24.2013 , 12:11 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The CD changes aren't perturbing me as much as they *should*, probably because Battle Readiness is turning into the king of all CDs: 25% additive DR, 15% heal, 35% increased proc chance (meaning 100% with CT while it's active), and 100% increase healing and damage from Techniques for 15 seconds. It's going to provide the same survivability contributions as Reactive Shield or Warding Call *and* it increases healing *and* damage.

My primary worry is that the combination of the shorter recharge times on the already impressive Guardian CDs combined with a potentially *stronger* version of Resilience (since it affects ranged as well as F/T attacks and reflects the damage back with a similar CD) is going to eke some of the uniqueness of the Shadow away (while also being potentially overpowered because of all of the other various surv and threat buffs): Shadows were always the CD based tanks; Saber Reflect + shorter CDs starts to impede on that role while still maintaining the Guardian uniqueness.
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You are right - I completely forgot about the battle readiness change. I disagree however about saber reflect being stronger than Resilience as a PvE talent. The ranged dmg reflect is going to rarely come into play, since it overlaps with saber ward / deflection, and should never be used for that purpose. It also does not work on AoE or dots, and does not cleanse existing negative effects, and is thus inferior as a pure survivability cooldown.

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Kitru
02.24.2013 , 01:06 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by periphelion View Post
I disagree however about saber reflect being stronger than Resilience as a PvE talent. The ranged dmg reflect is going to rarely come into play, since it overlaps with saber ward / deflection, and should never be used for that purpose. It also does not work on AoE or dots, and does not cleanse existing negative effects, and is thus inferior as a pure survivability cooldown.
Overlap within CDs isn't really a big deal, since you can just make sure you don't use them simultaneously. Complaining about overlap would be like complaining that you get 2 copies of Resilience instead of just 1: they're *both* useful, even if they're not useful simultaneously.

As to the cleanse and work on DoTs, those aren't really a major concern in PvE since, honestly, most PvE DoTs aren't a big deal and, if you need a cleanse, you've got a healer to take care of that 99% of the time (as such, on T&Z, I'm not going to waste Resilience on the internal damage DoT because healers should take care of that; I'll save Resilience for the Scream and/or a red reticule that I need to eat while channeling TkT). Reflecting ranged damage, however, is going to be *amazingly* useful, especially since it's on a short CD; being able to ignore ranged attacks for the opening volley of a fight while simultaneously generating substantial threat, both at the moment of use as well as through reflected damage, is going to be incredibly useful. The only reason I vacillate as to whether Saber Reflect is explicitly and substantially stronger is because it only applies to ST attacks, wherein the value of it depends explicitly upon the development choices made as part of content design: if the big, nasty attacks that you have to avoid are AoE, then Saber Reflect isn't going to be all that valuable; if they're primarily ST, it'll be *disgustingly good*.
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