Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.23.2013 , 02:02 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That she did. But imagine if she had joined Cin Drallig in the battle. Would not have made Skywalker's time any easier, that's for sure.

But she still ran away. Wise decision? Or folly? Could be both.
Probably a wise decision. I'm thinking she saw Cin getting eviscerated (technically impaled if you played the RotS video game) and figured, Anakin's going to kill us all!

I'm going to focus on Cin Drallig for a moment, seeing as he is an interesting example of what I'm getting at. He's the temple battlemaster, trained under Yoda, and a "master" (in the classroom, least) of all seven forms. He trains Anakin Skywalker, who goes out and fights in the Clone Wars. Skywalker hones his skills on the battlefield, fighting MagnaGuards, Count Dooku, etc. He comes back and this ensues:
Quote:
At the height of the war, Drallig was alerted by the High Council of a possible assault on the Temple by the Sith in 19 BBY. As Council member Mace Windu moved to arrest the Sith Lord, Drallig worked with Masters Shaak Ti and Jurokk to coordinate Temple security. When Windu failed to kill Darth Sidious, the insidious Sith sent his apprentice, Darth Vader, to secure the Jedi Temple in the name of the Dark Lords. As the 501st Legion marched on the Temple, Drallig readied his students for the assault. As clone troopers were felled on his blade, Drallig was made a priority target for elimination and Vader began hunting for his former mentor. However before Drallig and Vader could confront each other, Drallig's former student, Knight Keto, intercepted the Sith and engaged him in a duel. As Drallig rushed into the Tower of First Knowledge he witnessed Keto fall to the Sith Lord.[7] Briefly engaging the Sith, Drallig retreated to the Room of a Thousand Fountains where a large group of younglings were being protected by several Padawans. When Vader arrived in the greenhouse, he cut down Padawans Bene and Whie Malreaux before quickly overwhelming Drallig and hacking through his shoulder. With Drallig and the older Padawans dead, the remaining children were quickly cut down by blasterfire.[3] The incident was recorded by Temple security camera TR4-121.[1]
(Taken from Wikipedia)

So, the battle-hardened student returns and "quickly overwhelms" his old lightsaber instructor... at one point apparently fighting one-handed while choking another padawan. I think that's a pretty clear indicator that while Cin Drallig posed "the greatest threat" to Skywalker at the temple, this was only because everyone else was either a mediocre swordsman or still just a padawan. He was a threat only relative to the other Jedi in the temple.

If you prefer the TLDR version: Combat Experience >> Sparring Practice in the Jedi Temple

Earlier, there was mention that the 1000 years of peace allowed the Jedi to practice their swordsmanship endlessly. While this may be so, that doesn't amount to much experience when compared with the extensive battlefield experience of the earlier Jedi and Sith.

Lightsaber sparring is, of course, quite dangerous. One false move would be immediately fatal, but this would not necessarily encourage effective sparring. If anything, this would make the Jedi hesitant during their dueling sessions, and would not encourage the kind of all-out fighting that would occur on the battlefield. Would you really want to be the guy who killed another Master during a "friendly duel" because you thought he would be quicker on his guard than he actually was?

There is no real substitute for an actual fight. Sparring can teach the movements and the forms of combat, but it is only the first stepping stone. Only through actual experience can one learn the rhythms of combat, the instinct for killing that attunes one to the ebbs and flows of a duel. We see this clearly when Anakin cuts down Cin Drallig.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Of course I'm not saying that the Old Republic is completely and utterly out-classed. What I am saying is that you have grievously underestimated the dueling prowess of the great masters of the Jedi Council of the Prequels.
I'm not saying that no one from the PT Era could keep up with the OR Jedi. What I am saying is that the vast majority of the PT Jedi have little to no practical combat experience. They're like champion karate competitors suddenly thrown into a warzone, where the other guy is playing for keeps and not necessarily following a "dueling sequence" so much as he's trying his honest best to slice you open with a lightsaber.

Certain members of the PT Jedi Order rose to the challenge of the Clone Wars, namely Kenobi, Skywalker, Windu, and possibly a few others, but I think this just puts them on a level playing field with the countless combatants of the older wars against the Sith.

I would also like to address one other point regarding the Force and lightsabers.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Actually those who are strong in the Force and train heavily in lightsaber combat become extremely skilled swordsmen. The ability to use those deadly weapons at such speeds requires the heightened reflexes of a Jedi.


Lightsabers are considered difficult to wield by laymen because, while technically weightless, the arc fields containing the blade generate gyroscopic effects when the weapon is swung, making it difficult to control without practice.

Are the heightened reflexes of a Jedi tied to Force sensitivity, or to the degree of a Jedi's ability to wield the Force?
The way Obi-Wan Kenobi describes the Force to Luke is as a connected field of energy, and that by attuning himself to it, he is better able to perceive his surroundings. This was apparently how he deflected blaster bolts despite having the visor down during training.

Alternatively, do Jedi's reflexes appear faster because they have precognitive abilities? If so, then they are reacting to things before they happen. This is Qui-Gon Jinn's explanation to Anakin's mother as to how he is so talented at podracing.

Or, are some Jedi using the Force Speed ability to simply move faster than their opponent is able to react to them? It is suggested that Sidious does this when ambushing the Jedi in his offices. Any of these factors must be considered when discussing "Jedi Reflexes", and evaluating their effect on physical performance.

You also have Jedi such as Orgus Din who are considered quite weak in the Force, but are formidable duelists. I've always seen the Force as being separate from dueling abilities. This is not to say that certain Force powers (namely Force Speed, but also jumps and other physical powers) are not tremendously valuable in a duel, but just that the sensitivity required to wield a lightsaber is tied solely to whether or not one can sense the Force, rather than how strong one is at controlling or channeling the Force.

You say
Quote:
those who are strong in the Force AND train heavily in lightsaber combat become extremely skilled swordsmen
(emphasis mine)
These are separate concepts. Any force sensitive who trains heavily will increase his or her skill with a lightsaber, whether they are strong or weak in the Force. Those with strong Force abilities will have certain advantages over those who are weaker, but this does not reflect their swordsmanship directly.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.23.2013 , 02:24 AM | #22
Good arguments all around, I was bouncing back and forth in my opinions for a while there.

After reading all this my conclusion is simple. PT beats OR

I will play out a theoretical scenario in short story form to illustrate why,

Its a dreary, cool morning. The sun has begun to rise and a brisk wind floods the green valley. A nondescript hooded figure cloaked in brown robes enters the small cradle of pasture among the towering peaks. Another figure, wearing ratty tan robes and armored leggings, strides in from the opposing corner to meet the brown clad man. As they near, each one slows to a deliberate pace. They begin to remove the loose portions of their distinctive outfits and stop several meters away from each other. They two men draw their sabers and salute the other.

They begin to circle an imaginary spot between the two combatants. Tan clad makes the first move. They hum of his saber cuts through the morning air and the clash of the warriors blades send sparks across the space between them. The Brown clad is thrown on the defensive and, having mastered Soresu, parries each attack deliberately and precisely. Tan continues to press, carried by the energy he feels from his use of Juyo. Brown allows this, maintaining his impeccable defenses he gives ground slowly. Feeling his opponent give ground, Tan begins to drive even more, landing his blows swiftly while searching for an opening. Not finding one, and beginning to become frustrated, Tan disengages and makes several flips away to take stock of his situation.

Realizing his opponents aim to frustrate and tire him, Tan calms himself and sets himself to begin the next round with Ataru. However this time, Brown is the aggressor. He charges with a force propelled leap at Tan, attempting to land broad heavy blows. Tan's nimble Ataru stance allows him to easily avoid this juggernaut of power coming at him. Brown though, will not relent. He continues to attempt hammering blows to Tan and subdue him. Tan however, seeks to use this to his advantage. As Tan uses his acrobatics to get behind Brown's wide swings, Brown pivots. Coming about, he smartly parries and manages a smooth riposte aimed for Tan's exposed midsection. The now Makashi fighter flows into a series of moves that further pick apart the hastily composed Juyo defense. Brown transitions once again into Djem So and hammers away at Tan. By now both parties are exhausted, yet Brown is fueled by his superior force power.

The battered Tan knows now, when it seems he is at his weakest, is the time to strike. A firm force push throws an unsuspecting Brown 30 meters and Tan leaps directly behind his attack in an attempt to kill Brown in his surprised state. Brown is suitably surprised, yet his instincts in the force prevail. He rolls to his right and blasts the incoming Tan with a push of his own. Tan lands 10 meters away. Brown, having now separated himself from Brown, sets himself into a Soresu stance once again. Tan, his favored Juyo.

Now, Tan is wounded with a gash to the midsection and is bleeding while Brown likely has a cracked rib and bruised sternum. Tan assaults Brown again, this time more deliberately, and continues to search desperately for something to give. A minute passes with no relenting, no pause, no respite. The combatants are locked in a dazzling display of saber prowess. Steely determination borne of uncountable conflict and force augmented tirelessness borne of endless repetition, who will give out first. Almost inevitably,

Tan's wounds, caused by Brown's impeccable ability to seamlessly swap styles, force his body to give out first. As darkness clouds his vision, an unexpected counter-offensive by his opponent catches him off-guard. Brown's saber comes in high, blows raining down upon Tan's head. Brown finally bats away Tan's final defense and neatly beheads Tan.

In the grisly aftermath, Brown gazes upon his fallen foe. Shuddering, he moves slowly with great pain, to bury the dead, and honor a brave warrior. The survivor does not finish the shrine to his enemy until dusk. And as the sun sets on this day, so does it set on a fallen member of a powerful order, lost to a member of the generations to come who built upon and improved that which was refined in the heat of battle so many centuries before.


TL: DR (to long: didn't read)

The Prequel Jedi's knowledge of more forms allowed him more options and more ability to counter a limited opponent. Also, as you see late into the battle the thing that finally killed the OR jedi was his weaker force ability and lack of knowledge in multiple forms*. In battle, stamina is easily augmented by the force and the PT jedi easily has more force power, hence more stamina despite the OR jedi's battle toughened body.

I attempted to include the OR jedi's wisdom, reflexes, experience, cleverness, and aggressiveness in this. The PT jedi had patience, reactions, force power, and strategy on his side.

*The OR jedi who is constantly fighting will learn 1 or 2 forms and stick with them if they work, he doesn't have time or need to learn a third or fourth if 1-2 works. He gets really good in those 2 due to constant use but not much more.
Zey: "Kal, you know that the Sith are bad news. They're evil. They've always been the cause of endless war and carnage across the galaxy."
Skirata: "Oh, that's a good one. 'My decapitations are more morally valid than your decapitations.' Only difference I can see is that they plan to end up with trillions dead, and you do-gooders manage it by accident."

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.23.2013 , 03:28 AM | #23
Well, I read your story. All literary criticisms aside (it was hard to keep track of which Jedi was doing what at times) this was an enjoyable diversion. I will attempt to go over it piece by piece and debate the ideas you bring up during the duel.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Good arguments all around, I was bouncing back and forth in my opinions for a while there.

After reading all this my conclusion is simple. PT beats OR

I will play out a theoretical scenario in short story form to illustrate why,

Its a dreary, cool morning. The sun has begun to rise and a brisk wind floods the green valley. A nondescript hooded figure cloaked in brown robes enters the small cradle of pasture among the towering peaks. Another figure, wearing ratty tan robes and armored leggings, strides in from the opposing corner to meet the brown clad man. As they near, each one slows to a deliberate pace. They begin to remove the loose portions of their distinctive outfits and stop several meters away from each other. They two men draw their sabers and salute the other.
I appreciate you writing up an intro to this, it was nice to visualize. The salute seems to imply a very formal duel, though. Perhaps I'll provide a counter-scenario under more chaotic (read: battlefield) circumstances.

It appear that Tan is the OR Era Jedi and Brown is the PT Era Jedi, correct?
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
They begin to circle an imaginary spot between the two combatants. Tan clad makes the first move. They hum of his saber cuts through the morning air and the clash of the warriors blades send sparks across the space between them. The Brown clad is thrown on the defensive and, having mastered Soresu, parries each attack deliberately and precisely. Tan continues to press, carried by the energy he feels from his use of Juyo. Brown allows this, maintaining his impeccable defenses he gives ground slowly. Feeling his opponent give ground, Tan begins to drive even more, landing his blows swiftly while searching for an opening. Not finding one, and beginning to become frustrated, Tan disengages and makes several flips away to take stock of his situation.
This is plausible, but also remember that one of Juyo's explicitly stated strengths is that it can frequently slice through the defenses of even a Soresu master. The duel could end here if the OR Jedi, being a veteran of these confrontations, moves around the PT Jedi's defenses (remember: Juyo is both unpredictable and aggressive, always aiming for the killing stroke) and delivers a fatal blow to his throat or chest.

Perhaps the PT Jedi's Soresu is enough to keep him alive for now...

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Realizing his opponents aim to frustrate and tire him, Tan calms himself and sets himself to begin the next round with Ataru. However this time, Brown is the aggressor. He charges with a force propelled leap at Tan, attempting to land broad heavy blows.
So, has Brown switched away from Soresu for his attack? Your later statements imply he is now using Djem So (a wise move, as that form is designed for saber combat, balancing offense and defense). It is completely illogical for The OR Jedi to begin using Ataru here, however. Juyo is the perfect foil for Soresu, since it provides enough of a defense to keep the Soresu duelist from easily finding an opening, while aggressively creating openings in the defenses of your adversary. Better strategy here is to press the attack with Juyo and go for the quick, opportunistic kill.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Tan's nimble Ataru stance allows him to easily avoid this juggernaut of power coming at him.
Slow down there, pal. Ataru is noted for it's extremely poor defensive qualities. Also, it's physically exhaustive to begin with, and so is quite poorly suited for prolonged battles (you know, the sort you would experience on a battlefield) so it seems to run against the experiences of an OR veteran combatant.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Brown though, will not relent. He continues to attempt hammering blows to Tan and subdue him. Tan however, seeks to use this to his advantage. As Tan uses his acrobatics to get behind Brown's wide swings, Brown pivots. Coming about, he smartly parries and manages a smooth riposte aimed for Tan's exposed midsection. The now Makashi fighter flows into a series of moves that further pick apart the hastily composed Juyo defense. Brown transitions once again into Djem So and hammers away at Tan. By now both parties are exhausted, yet Brown is fueled by his superior force power.
This is what I mean, using Ataru will exhaust you too easily (Qui-Gon learned this the hard way against Maul) The inexperienced duelist might employ Ataru because he's been trained in it, but the veteran warrior will stay away from such a shaky form unless he has an overwhelming reason to use it.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
The battered Tan knows now, when it seems he is at his weakest, is the time to strike. A firm force push throws an unsuspecting Brown 30 meters and Tan leaps directly behind his attack in an attempt to kill Brown in his surprised state. Brown is suitably surprised, yet his instincts in the force prevail. He rolls to his right and blasts the incoming Tan with a push of his own. Tan lands 10 meters away. Brown, having now separated himself from Brown, sets himself into a Soresu stance once again. Tan, his favored Juyo.
Again, the fancy acrobatics rarely result in a kill, unless you've got the drop (heh heh) on your adversary. Recall Malgus fighting in the Jedi Temple, his dramatic leap only gave the Jedi he was fighting more time to react. (Kid should have known better, this was pretty late in the war... but he's an arrogant Sith Lord with a flair for the dramatic, oh well).
As for the stances assumed here, good choices both. Soresu is efficient in its defense, conserving energy. However, when you're getting tired, you know you've got to end things quickly, so Juyo makes sense if you're experienced with it. We're basically back at square one, however... the veteran combatant would probably have seen this coming, and stuck with his initial strategy instead of getting all acrobatic.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Now, Tan is wounded with a gash to the midsection and is bleeding while Brown likely has a cracked rib and bruised sternum. Tan assaults Brown again, this time more deliberately, and continues to search desperately for something to give. A minute passes with no relenting, no pause, no respite. The combatants are locked in a dazzling display of saber prowess. Steely determination borne of uncountable conflict and force augmented tirelessness borne of endless repetition, who will give out first. Almost inevitably, Tan's wounds, caused by Brown's impeccable ability to seamlessly swap styles, force his body to give out first. As darkness clouds his vision, an unexpected counter-offensive by his opponent catches him off-guard. Brown's saber comes in high, blows raining down upon Tan's head. Brown finally bats away Tan's final defense and neatly beheads Tan.
Bleeding from a saber wound?! I'm going to pretend you didn't say that (lightsabers cauterize their wound almost instantly). Also, the Jedi preferred to kill by impaling with the end of a lightsaber whenever possible. Decapitation was seen as a last resort, since it caused the most disfiguration when compared to kills made to the torso/abdomen.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
In the grisly aftermath, Brown gazes upon his fallen foe. Shuddering, he moves slowly with great pain, to bury the dead, and honor a brave warrior. The survivor does not finish the shrine to his enemy until dusk. And as the sun sets on this day, so does it set on a fallen member of a powerful order, lost to a member of the generations to come who built upon and improved that which was refined in the heat of battle so many centuries before.
More in line with a Jedi's teachings, here. However, were this an actual battle, the PT Jedi would not have had a chance for respite. If you burn out after one engagement, it's going to be quite easy for any old rookie to take you out thirty seconds later. Or worse, a stray blaster bolt you might have deflected could slip past your guard if you're wounded and exhausted. One of the most important principles of combat (mostly learned through experience) is how to conserve your stamina.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
TL: DR (to long: didn't read)

The Prequel Jedi's knowledge of more forms allowed him more options and more ability to counter a limited opponent. Also, as you see late into the battle the thing that finally killed the OR jedi was his weaker force ability and lack of knowledge in multiple forms*. In battle, stamina is easily augmented by the force and the PT jedi easily has more force power, hence more stamina despite the OR jedi's battle toughened body.

I attempted to include the OR jedi's wisdom, reflexes, experience, cleverness, and aggressiveness in this. The PT jedi had patience, reactions, force power, and strategy on his side.
I agree with you on the aggression and cleverness, although I'm not sure you represented the experience factor too accurately... however, that's mostly semantics. The duel on the whole was plausible, although it seemed more like a set piece engagement between two PT Era Jedi at times.

When you say the PT Jedi "easily" has more Force Power, I feel like you're making an assumption here. While the PT Jedi is likely to have more subtle control of the Force, and a more developed knowledge of its theories and philosophy, he is no more likely to have a greater raw aptitude for the Force than his OR counterpart. For the sake of argument, we can say that on average, a PT Jedi will have greater knowledge of Force techniques and a wider arsenal of powers that he regularly practices.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
*The OR jedi who is constantly fighting will learn 1 or 2 forms and stick with them if they work, he doesn't have time or need to learn a third or fourth if 1-2 works. He gets really good in those 2 due to constant use but not much more.
Well... that's kind of my point. The one or two forms he knows really work. As in, they have allowed him to kill numerous adversaries, who likely utilized the full spectrum of lightsaber forms (not individually, but collectively he is more likely to have fought a variety of duelists). He gets better and better with his chosen forms every time he fights.

The PT Era Jedi has been taught to use an adaptive, flexible style. He switches between forms as he sees fit, and while this gives him a greater flexibility, it can also have drawbacks. There is such a thing as "paralysis of choice". When confronted with many options at once, under stressful conditions, your reactions are often slower than when confronted with only a few choices. This is one of the core principles you must adhere to when instructing hand to hand combat. It is infinitely better to teach a few simple, effective techniques that can be applied in any number of situations than to learn a large number of more specific techniques.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that the PT Era Jedi has fought a practitioner of Juyo before. Aside from sparring sessions with Mace Windu or one of the other few Jedi permitted to learn Juyo/Vapaad, PT Era Jedi have no exposure to this lethal, efficient style. That's a large part of why Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi have such trouble fighting against Darth Maul. There's a good reason that Mace Windu used Juyo almost exclusively (it was deadly and flexible), and he was considered the best, or second best duelist in the entire PT Order.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.23.2013 , 04:14 AM | #24
Just for the sake of it, I'll present a quick counter-scenario to the earlier bit of literature attempting to illustrate a confrontation between the two parties considered here.

The battle has been raging for almost an hour, and both sides' formations have begun to break down. The jungle air is thick with smoke and fires crackle here and there in the underbrush. An OR Jedi moves cautiously through a crater, wary of incoming blaster fire, reaching out through the Force to feel the presence of any nearby foes.

As he climbs the lip of the crater, a PT Era Jedi moves through the jungle foliage nearby. They sense each other, and both Jedi raise their guards swiftly. The OR Jedi steps into Djem So, while the PT Jedi reflexively assumes the Jedi Ready stance. Blaster fire lights up the smoke around them, and a flight of bombers screams overhead.

Seizing the initiative, the OR Jedi moves forward quickly. Striking smoothly and repeatedly, he balances aggression with caution, seeking the measure of his enemy.

The PT Jedi guards against this attack, dancing gracefully into the forms of Soresu. He is also watching his enemy, waiting to tire him out.

The OR Jedi has danced this dance before, and he knows the music well. He presses with Djem So, bringing down heavy blows on the PT Jedi's guard, who transitions to Shien in order to better prepare for an opening in his enemy's guard. As he does so, the OR Jedi unexpectedly leaps into a series of thrusts and close cuts, intermingled randomly with kicks and attempts to trip the PT Jedi. Confused by the ferocity of his attack, and the unpredictable, seemingly random nature of his attacks, the PT Jedi drops back into Soresu, relying on his close guard to protect him from this vicious assault.

The two combatants' lightsabers flash in the smoke, and they step quickly over the wet jungle plants, careful of their footing; eyes locked on each other's sabers. The PT Jedi is quick with his reactions, each parry a reflexive motion, the product of a thousand hours sparring in the Temple. His counterpart flows with the rhythm of the fight, not thinking but feeling his opponent's lightsaber clash with his, seeking that one perfect moment. His form is efficient, and aggressive, but not as exhausting an offensive as Ataru.

The PT Jedi reaches out through the Force and feels his opponents movements, seeing them less with his eyes as much as he feels them through the Force. He calms himself and lets the Force guide his lightsaber, moving to match the unpredictable attacks.

The fight moves away from the crater, and closer to the jungle. Sweat drips into their eyes and the acrid smoke all around them stings their lungs. Suddenly, the PT Jedi senses a burst of emotion from his adversary. The OR Jedi shunts aside the blade of the PT Jedi, making a quick cut across his enemy's chest. It is shallow, but unexpected.

Fighting panic, the PT Jedi tries to step into the next form in his sequence. He seeks the calm of the Force, raising his guard, but before he completes the motion, the OR Jedi has stepped in close, following up on his cut. He allows the momentum of the PT Jedi's sequence to carry him forward, and deftly slides around him. A quick twist of his wrists turns the OR Jedi's saber, driving it into the PT Jedi's back. The glowing end of his blade juts from his enemy's sternum, casting it's glow on his face.

Still puzzled, his mouth slightly open as he breathes out sharply in surprise, the PT Jedi crumples to the ground. The OR Jedi pauses to check that his enemy is dead, and feeling nothing in the Force where a moment ago there was the shimmering presence of his enemy, he moves on into the jungle, towards the sounds of battle.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 09:01 AM | #25
Narratives aside (and very good ones may I say!) allow me to reiterate a few points and pose some new ones, rather than counter the host of arguments that have been made in my absence:

One's connection to the Light Side of the Force is negatively affected by war, take the Jedi Code:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
- war creates anger, hatred, pain etc. and it dispels peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
- war destroys knowledge, both through killing those who possess it and destroying records that hold it e.g. the destruction of the Jedi Temple, and the Jedi Library on Ossus.

There is no passion, there is serenity.
- war encourages passion, in the heat of battle it is all to easy to embrace ones emotions and allow them to unbalance you, this is what happened to Anakin Skywalker.

There is no chaos, there is harmony
- war creates chaos and death and causes rifts to open up both physically and spiritually. It is often difficult to achieve harmony and serenity in the midst of battle.

There is no death, there is the Force
- this line is not exactly relevant, but nonetheless seeing countless die before you, seeing their lives wasted may make a Jedi doubt the integrity of this line.

All together war is the antithesis of what a Jedi stands for and oppossed to the Light Side of the Force - as such when a Jedi engages in war they risk losing affinity with the light and becoming unfocused and unbalanced.

What is important though is to see the connection between the Force and lightsaber combat, the Force is an intrinsic component of the lightsaber, you cannot simply say they are entirely different realms. As Wookieepedia says, it is impossible to achieve true mastery over the lightsaber if you lack a strong connection to the Force. And the lightsaber forms themselves rely on strength in the Force e.g. Ataru and Form V. Dun moch is also evidence of this, it was often used by the Sith to unbalance their Jedi opponents by encouraging them to embrace their emotions. Darth Maul uses this against Obi-Wan Kenobi if you recall:

"Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way, is it?"

Imagine the effect that a prolonged war would have on a Jedi's affinity with the light, a powerful master such as Satele may be able to maintain serenity, but the same cannot be said for the less experienced of the Order. Lets also consider that it is through meditation and serenity that one draws closer, and therefore more powerful, in the Force. The PT Jedi Order experienced 2000 years of peace, in which they could bring themselves closer and closer to the Force and become more powerful because of it. As such they can augment their prowess with the lightsaber with their strength in the Force. Meanwhile those Jedi who have only experienced war will become weakened because of it. The crux of this argument is that war weakens Jedi and peace strengthens them. Indeed if anyone has played the Sith Warrior storyline they will recall the Jedi Master on Hoth who had spent many years in solitude, drawing closer and closer to the Force, without the chaos of battle surrounding him he grew more powerful:

"The Force is with me, greater than ever now. I suspect I could defeat you quite handily. But I'm no longer concerned with the tidings of this galaxy, or these times. I only seek to continue my transcendence."

We also cannot disregard the effect war has on teachings. Ventessel brings up 'rotations' etc. to deal with such problems, but he does not take into account a major factor: death. War takes countless lives, many of which would have been Jedi Knights skilled with the lightsaber, how can a Jedi train new padawans if they are dead? During the Great Sith War many of the Order's most skilled duelists were killed or indisposed e.g. Ulic Qel Droma, Exar Kun, Cay Qel-Droma, Vodo-Siosk Baas and many others. And lets not forget the loss of the Great Jedi Library on Ossus, at least half on the Jedi teachings were destroyed, many of which likely encompassed lightsaber combat. Then we have the Mandalorian Wars, a huge portion of the Jedi broke away from the Order, likely many of them were Jedi Guardians and Sentinels. All were lost during the Mandalorian Wars, they either died or fell to the dark side and were later killed in the Jedi Civil War. During that period the Dantooine Jedi Enclave was razed, more teachings lost. And then we have the Great Galactic War which saw the destruction of the Jedi Temple, and the loss of countless Jedi Knights. During the Cold War Jun Seros, Jaric Kaedan and Orgus Din were all killed, and that was just during the Cold War - can you imagine the loss of powerful Jedi Knights during the war itself?

All this accumulated with the next generation of Jedi being completely without substantial teaching in the Force and in lightsaber combat, so all that combat experience built up in periods of war was lost and never utilized. Do you recall Mical? When he came of age their were no Jedi left to train him, think how many other potential Jedi would have been lost and how many Jedi would have be incompetently trained by the few Consulars and Historians that remained. War has a tendency to seriously damage the population of skilled lightsaber duelists, making the next generation comparatively weak. Whereas in a period of sustained peace, this is not a problem. Knowledge is gained, retained and passed on.

Finally we are giving too much value to first hand combat experience, yes it is important but once that experience is retained it doesn't have to be lost, it can be preserved and passed down to generations to come. Take the lightsaber forms, they flourished in a period of war were Jedi could test themselves and learn from experience. But once these forms were lain down and preserved, there was no longer any need for combat experience. Because that experience can essentially be attained simply by learning a form. A Jedi can learn how to deflect blaster bolts, not by engaging in war, but by learning Soresu. A Jedi can learn how to fight a lightsaber wielding opponent by learning Makashi. Take Dooku, he had never and never has fought in a war, and yet he is immensely skilled with the lightsaber and has defeated many lightsaber wielding opponents.

So in that sense the PT Jedi Order has just as much 'combat experience' as the OR Jedi Order did, they have all the benefits of war experience and none of the negatives. The fact that many if not most Jedi survived the Clone Wars is testament to this. What the PT Order has in their advantage however is a closer affinity to the Force, which does - and I cannot stress this enough - have a significant impact of lightsaber prowess, the two are inseparable. In a nutshell the PT Order is all the more stronger the OR Jedi Order because Jedi thrive in peace and are weakened by war - that is the way of the Force.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 10:59 AM | #26
Bingo Beni. Could not have said it better myself.
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.23.2013 , 11:21 AM | #27
I can see why people would consider OR jedi to be superior to PT jedi since PT jedi have more real combat experience since in real life someone with firsthand experience will always beat someone who read about it in a book or sparred with it, with no real firsthand experience.

That being said, this isnt real life, this is star wars, and during the era of peace the jedi were able to get overall stronger in the force and improve on their lightsaber combat by deepening their connection to the force. As earlier stated by Beni, Jedi Master Wylett had been hibernating in an ice cave on Hoth for decades deepening his connection to the force, and when he emerged he became vastly more powerful.

Also while the jedi became stronger as a whole, they didnt become overwhelmingly stronger to the point where someone like Jaric Kaedan in his prime would get easily destroyed by an average jedi knight in the PT. Where the OR had few great masters (Revan, Meetra, Kaedan, Satele (maybe she hasnt beat anyone noteworthy) the PT had many great masters (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Dooku, basically the entire PT jedi high council and then some. This is a testament to how the jedi have gotten stronger as a whole.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.23.2013 , 01:01 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
I can see why people would consider OR jedi to be superior to PT jedi since PT jedi have more real combat experience since in real life someone with firsthand experience will always beat someone who read about it in a book or sparred with it, with no real firsthand experience.

That being said, this isnt real life, this is star wars, and during the era of peace the jedi were able to get overall stronger in the force and improve on their lightsaber combat by deepening their connection to the force. As earlier stated by Beni, Jedi Master Wylett had been hibernating in an ice cave on Hoth for decades deepening his connection to the force, and when he emerged he became vastly more powerful.
An interesting point, I looked into Wylett but didn't find any information on him. Does anyone have some Wookiepedia knowledge concerning him?
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkondo View Post
Also while the jedi became stronger as a whole, they didnt become overwhelmingly stronger to the point where someone like Jaric Kaedan in his prime would get easily destroyed by an average jedi knight in the PT. Where the OR had few great masters (Revan, Meetra, Kaedan, Satele (maybe she hasnt beat anyone noteworthy) the PT had many great masters (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Dooku, basically the entire PT jedi high council and then some. This is a testament to how the jedi have gotten stronger as a whole.
You list four PT Era Jedi by name, and then say the "entire PT Jedi high council"... I could just as easily say that any of the dozens on knights we see fighting in the Jedi Temple against Malgus' invasion force, or the hundreds who are said to have taken part in any given battle were, by default, more experienced and skilled in lightsaber combat since they are constantly fighting against lightsaber wielding opponents.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Narratives aside (and very good ones may I say!) allow me to reiterate a few points and pose some new ones, rather than counter the host of arguments that have been made in my absence.
Well, I didn't just raise those arguments for fun (well, actually I did, since this is Star Wars). Take a moment to look over my post at the top of page three, particularly the bits about Cin Drallig and sparring practice with lightsabers, as I feel they get close to the heart of what's being discussed here.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
What is important though is to see the connection between the Force and lightsaber combat, the Force is an intrinsic component of the lightsaber, you cannot simply say they are entirely different realms. As Wookieepedia says, it is impossible to achieve true mastery over the lightsaber if you lack a strong connection to the Force.
Wookiepedia does not say that. The precise phrasing I found is this:
Quote:
It was difficult to master for a number of reasons, one of them being that all of the weight a lightsaber had was in its hilt. It had been said that only a Force-sensitive individual could completely master lightsaber combat.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat
This implies that Force sensitivity is required to be aware of the nuances of handling a lightsaber, but does not at all state that the strength of one's connection to the Force is tied to lightsaber skills.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And the lightsaber forms themselves rely on strength in the Force e.g. Ataru and Form V. Dun moch is also evidence of this, it was often used by the Sith to unbalance their Jedi opponents by encouraging them to embrace their emotions
You raise a good point here, but it actually fits in neatly with what I was saying earlier (post at the top of page 3). The Force obviously confers many advantages when used properly in combat, and Ataru is great evidence of this. The acrobatics are enabled by the use of the Force, and the blaster bolt deflection of Soresu and Shien are also examples of how the sensitivity to the Force allows a Jedi to perceive things that others cannot. Note that this is a product of sensitivity and awareness, not necessarily raw Force channeling abilities.

As for Dun Moch, I think that's just good psychological warfare in any situation. The Jedi should develop an equivalent, because whoever unbalances their opponent is naturally going to have the edge.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Lets also consider that it is through meditation and serenity that one draws closer, and therefore more powerful, in the Force. The PT Jedi Order experienced 2000 years of peace, in which they could bring themselves closer and closer to the Force and become more powerful because of it. As such they can augment their prowess with the lightsaber with their strength in the Force.
You say 2000, but only 1000 years passed between Ruusan and the Clone Wars. A typo, perhaps?
Regardless, these years did not make each successive generation of Jedi exponentially stronger in the Force. The people being recruited would still have the same random aptitude for the Force that past generations did, what varies is the level and focus of their training. Every generation of Jedi trained during these peaceful days will have extensive instruction in the philosophies of the Force, and will spend time meditating. This will make him better at using the Force, and because of this it seems that Ataru became quite a popular sparring form since it naturally played to the use of the Force.

The argument could even be made that sparring with Ataru would be encouraged during the peaceful years because it did not focus purely on sword skills but pushed the Jedi to master their control over the Force as well. However, it is a fatally inefficient form when compared with more dueling-centric forms like Djem So and Juyo, which would have little to no practical requirement in this era.

Another thing to consider is the focus of their combat training. There are no Sith remaining in the galaxy. The Jedi Order believes them extinct, and while they theoretically guard against their return, there is no eminent threat from lightsaber or Force-wielding adversaries (aside from isolated incidents of rogue Jedi, etc.)

Soresu flourishes in this time period, since it focuses on defending against blasters. Almost every fight that a Jedi would find himself in while resolving disputes during this time period would require him to guard against blasters, rather than melee combatants. So this is the only form that is actually used in the field regularly by the Jedi.

Consider also the nature of the Clone Wars. The Jedi fought against battle droids, mercenaries, and blaster-wielding allies of the CIS. Little to no lightsaber combat, except for the few isolated duels that the main characters fought from time to time. Compare this to any given battle in the OR Era, where dozens, if not hundreds, of Jedi and Sith clashed in lethal combat.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
We also cannot disregard the effect war has on teachings. Ventessel brings up 'rotations' etc. to deal with such problems, but he does not take into account a major factor: death. War takes countless lives, many of which would have been Jedi Knights skilled with the lightsaber, how can a Jedi train new padawans if they are dead? During the Great Sith War many of the Order's most skilled duelists were killed or indisposed e.g. Ulic Qel Droma, Exar Kun, Cay Qel-Droma, Vodo-Siosk Baas and many others. And lets not forget the loss of the Great Jedi Library on Ossus, at least half on the Jedi teachings were destroyed, many of which likely encompassed lightsaber combat. Then we have the Mandalorian Wars, a huge portion of the Jedi broke away from the Order, likely many of them were Jedi Guardians and Sentinels. All were lost during the Mandalorian Wars, they either died or fell to the dark side and were later killed in the Jedi Civil War. During that period the Dantooine Jedi Enclave was razed, more teachings lost. And then we have the Great Galactic War which saw the destruction of the Jedi Temple, and the loss of countless Jedi Knights. During the Cold War Jun Seros, Jaric Kaedan and Orgus Din were all killed, and that was just during the Cold War - can you imagine the loss of powerful Jedi Knights during the war itself?
You raise a valid point, but perhaps you carry it too far. Certainly, in each war many Jedi are killed. Some of those who died were experienced combatants. However, the ones who lived would also have practical combat knowledge, and one battle-hardened Jedi can provide valuable training to many Knights and Padawans. So the death of many prominent duelists does not necessarily mean that no one passed on the lessons of war to the newer Jedi.
The Jedi Civil war produced many extremely skilled duelists, since they were forced to hone their lightsaber skills in combat. Things did get pretty bad after the First Jedi Purge, but they recovered over the 300 years between then and the Great Galactic War, and had 28 years to really get the hang of fighting psychotic, lightsaber wielding Sith. 28 Years of constant dueling and so forth would really force the Jedi to practice only the most effective combat techniques, since both sides are constantly improving their technique and adjusting their training regimens over the course of the war. And while many experienced Knights were killed during the Cold War, and again during the renewed conflict, many more would have gained battle experience and become formidable fighters.
If anything, the loss of teachings when the temples were sacked would have hindered the consulars more than the guardians. You can pretty quickly copy down notes on the combat styles of current Jedi, who are experienced with dueling. However, remaking holocrons detailing Force techniques and philosophical treatises could prove impossible unless Jedi archivists happened to remember exactly what was stored in them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
All this accumulated with the next generation of Jedi being completely without substantial teaching in the Force and in lightsaber combat, so all that combat experience built up in periods of war was lost and never utilized. Do you recall Mical? When he came of age their were no Jedi left to train him, think how many other potential Jedi would have been lost and how many Jedi would have be incompetently trained by the few Consulars and Historians that remained.
Mical is a specific example from the immediate aftermath of the First Jedi Purge. Yes, things were rough right then for the Jedi Order, but they got back on their feet. I'm referring to the Jedi who lived during the wars, and in the generations immediately following such conflicts as Exar Kun's Wars, the Mandalorian Wars, and the Great Galactic War.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
War has a tendency to seriously damage the population of skilled lightsaber duelists, making the next generation comparatively weak. Whereas in a period of sustained peace, this is not a problem. Knowledge is gained, retained and passed on.
War creates those duelists in the first place. The fact that some of them do not survive is simply a bi-product of their creation during duels that occur within the war's battles. In a period of sustained peace, that experience is lost when no Jedi who have combat experience are left.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Finally we are giving too much value to first hand combat experience, yes it is important but once that experience is retained it doesn't have to be lost, it can be preserved and passed down to generations to come. Take the lightsaber forms, they flourished in a period of war were Jedi could test themselves and learn from experience. But once these forms were lain down and preserved, there was no longer any need for combat experience. Because that experience can essentially be attained simply by learning a form. A Jedi can learn how to deflect blaster bolts, not by engaging in war, but by learning Soresu. A Jedi can learn how to fight a lightsaber wielding opponent by learning Makashi. Take Dooku, he had never and never has fought in a war, and yet he is immensely skilled with the lightsaber and has defeated many lightsaber wielding opponents.
Ah, this is essentially the premise that I am contesting. I believe Cin Drallig is a perfect example of how academic study of the lightsaber forms is no match for practical combat experience. Dooku is not necessarily a great example of your thinking, either. The majority of his duels were against similarly inexperienced Jedi, and he gained experience from killing those Jedi, further honing his skills. Academic study can take you so far, but you hit a wall eventually, and only combat experience can truly develop your instincts for dueling.

Blaster bolt practice is the exception here, since a training droid can fire at a Jedi in near-perfect simulation of actual gunfire. However, recall that training is still a controlled scenario, with stun bolts. In an actual battle, the chaos and confusion could easily overwhelm an inexperienced Jedi. I will state that this is one area in which the PT Jedi, at least near the end of the Clone Wars, would certainly have been the equals of the OR Jedi, due to the overwhelming tendency of the PT Jedi's enemies to use blasters. However, they were fighting droids for the most part, which are markedly inferior to live soldiers (except droidekas... those are just trouble all over), so OR Jedi who are used to engaging Sith soldiers, etc. would have to be even more alert to survive against thinking opponents (most droids cannot be considered "thinking" enemies, they have programming and some are better than others).

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
So in that sense the PT Jedi Order has just as much 'combat experience' as the OR Jedi Order did, they have all the benefits of war experience and none of the negatives. The fact that many if not most Jedi survived the Clone Wars is testament to this.
No, the PT Jedi Order has approximately zero combat experience at the start of the Clone Wars. They do have experience against blasters, which is mainly what they face during the Clone Wars, so it makes sense that many of them fared decently during an era when none of their adversaries were known to employ lightsabers or melee weapons (excluding General Grievous and MagnaGuards, but they are a rare exception).
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
What the PT Order has in their advantage however is a closer affinity to the Force, which does - and I cannot stress this enough - have a significant impact of lightsaber prowess, the two are inseparable. In a nutshell the PT Order is all the more stronger the OR Jedi Order because Jedi thrive in peace and are weakened by war - that is the way of the Force.
The PT Jedi's knowledge of the Force (on average) is more developed, true. However, knowledge of the Force is not applicable to all lightsaber forms. Some forms, such as Ataru, rely on strength in the Force to perform acrobatics. Soresu relies on the Jedi's awareness of his surroundings (derived from his sensitivity, not necessarily his strength in the Force. See the Wookiepedia quote above).
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.23.2013 , 04:20 PM | #29
You make a good point about Drallig, however lets also consider that by that point as Darth Vader he had become immensely powerful. Before the war he was already a very formidable lightsaber duelist able to go toe-to-toe with Count Dooku, whom he defeated aboard the Invisible Hand. And Dooku was far superior to Drallig in terms of skill with a lightsaber, he was second only to Yoda and Windu.

Now you could attribute that growth in power to the Clone Wars but as you say fighting hordes of battle droids would have done little to hone is lightsaber skill, only Ventress, Dooku and Grievous provided any sort of challenge - and he did not confront them frequently. We can just as much attribute his growth in power to practice and study. He also learned to augment emotions into his power, rather than let them unbalance him as other Jedi had. And when he finally embraced the dark side his skill in Form V became immensely amplified.

And concerning the other arguments you brought up

Darkondo refrains from listing them all in detail for good reason, because there were so many. Just look them up on Wookieepedia, they were all renowned and highly skilled lightsaber duelists:

Quote:
Mundi was an extremely skilled fighter with the Jedi weapon.
Quote:
Plo Koon was a powerful Jedi Master and the mysterious Sith Lord Darth Maul considered him to be one of the greatest Jedi warriors of his time though they never dueled one another...He was also a master of the fifth form of lightsaber combat, Djem So/Shien. Master Plo was considered amongst the most skilled swordsman in the Jedi Order, being capable of fending off even Asajj Ventress while being encumbered by a broken arm
Quote:
Having trained as a Jedi Guardian, Saesee Tiin possessed exceptional prowess with a lightsaber
Quote:
A master practitioner of Shii-Cho, Kit Fisto was considered to be one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order.
Quote:
However, he was primarily known as a master lightsaber duelist. Mace Windu himself, considered one of the greatest duelists in the Order's history, found Kolar's abilities considerable.
Quote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi was one of the greatest lightsaber duelists of his time...Ten years study into Form III resulted in an advanced skillset, and Kenobi became one of the most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history...In addition to Soresu, Kenobi would also master and incorporate elements of Shii-Cho and Niman into his fighting style, as well as appearing to have been well versed in the art of Jar'Kai dual-blade combat
Quote:
Shaak Ti was well versed in several forms of lightsaber combat. Considered one of the finest swordswomen of the era, her colleagues regarded her as one of the most cunning warriors of the day.
Quote:
Luminara Unduli possessed power that very few Jedi were able to overcome. She had amazing lightsaber skills, as she was a master of Form III and had some skill in Form V. Not only were her lightsaber skills superb, but she had also trained herself to become so incredibly flexible that she could easily twist to evade almost any attack that she did not block with her green lightsaber.
Quote:
Aayla Secura was trained as a Jedi Guardian, leading her to focus more on her combat skills, becoming an impressively skilled fighter. She mastered the fourth form of lightsaber combat, Ataru, and had some skill in Form V, as well as being a practitioner of Jar'Kai.
Quote:
Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. He was the Jedi Temple's most agile swordmaster and instructor...Count Dooku was one of the finest practitioners of Makashi in his day, mastering the form at its highest levels...Dooku's practical application of the form was exemplary; his skills were surpassed only by Yoda, and only Mace Windu was credited as Dooku's equal.
Quote:
Bulq was best known among the Jedi for his skill with the lightsaber; he was known to have achieved mastery of all the lightsaber combat forms and was considered among the Order's greatest swordsmen.
Quote:
Anakin Skywalker was trained by the Order's most promising Jedi Knight, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Through him, Skywalker would inherit a rich tradition of lightsaber training. Skywalker's style featured elements of many masters, making him outstandingly talented, even at a very young age.
~ Wookieepedia, most sourced from Star Wars

Also just because a Jedi has taken part in battle does not make them "by default, more experienced and skilled in lightsaber combat since they are constantly fighting against lightsaber wielding opponents" - to accept that we would have to accept your entire premise and this argument wouldn't be taken place now would it? And those Jedi were not as highly skilled as you claimed as Malgus defeated and destroyed them.

I also fail to see your point concerning Force abilities. It is obvious and nothing short of a canon-fact that lightsaber mastery depends on a strong affinity (may I stress affinity, not knowledge) in the Force. Not just for heightened sense and awareness, but to augment ones speed, reflexes and ability in precognition. But my point more is that war unbalances a Jedi's connection to the Force, and so their concentration, and their ability to draw upon all of the above, are hampered - they become weaker. A point you have yet to address. A Jedi living in peace time is at peace inside, and therefore can better wield a lightsaber. Note that sensitivity and awareness and Force channeling abilities stem from the same source. If anything sensitivity and awareness are more negatively effected by unbalance, caused by conflict. And concerning Dun Moch, its not just psychological warfare, by encouraging a Jedi to embrace their emotions, they cannot draw on the light side of the Force as easily, it hampers them. War has the same effect as Dun Moch, its a psychological war of sorts. And just to clarify, affinity in the Force (gained through meditation and peace etc.) leads to strength in the Force. One's midichlorian count is far from a glass ceiling - it counts for little. Your also confusing the words 'sensitivity' and 'sense', having strong force sensitivity does not ensure a strong force sense. Growing more powerful in the Force improves ones force sense among other things, it is not an entirely inherent ability.

And concerning periods of peace, I'm not sure, I was searching for how long and I chanced upon something that said '2000 years' but whatever. It was a long time.

Some things that need to be corrected however:

What you say about Ataru is a somewhat baseless assumption, Jedi realise the deficiency it that form and it was rarely used alone. Forms such as Soresu, Shii-Cho, Shien and Niman were favored just as much, if not more.

What's more a skilled wielder (and as you said they would be skilled given the flourishing of tutelage during peaceful periods) of Soresu is perfectly capable of taking on a lightsaber wielding opponent e.g. Darth Zannah was trained in Soresu and used in proficiently against several powerful Jedi Masters and defeat Bane himself. And Obi-Wan himself took up Soresu to better counter lightsaber wielding opponents after witnessing the death of his Master. And given that the majority of threats at the time would come from blaster wielding opponents at that time I suspect their were many masters, and as we know, a master of Soresu is invincible.

Your also extremely misinformed concerning the OR period. Mical was not refused training because of the First Jedi Purge, but because of the Mandalorian Wars due to the large number of Jedi that left the order in that time period. In fact I'd go as far to say that the Revanchists were not Jedi, and so using them as an example is a moot point. Considering that they were practically Sith by the end of the Mandalorian Wars, I'd say that is a valid point to make. Counter-intuitively the very Jedi you refer to gaining experience during the war from Sith, were the Sith themselves! May I also stress that it was during the course of the Mandalorian Wars up to (not after) the First Jedi Purge almost all members of the Jedi Order were either dead, or had left. Only 100 remained - likely historians, consulars and the last of the Jedi Councils (who you yourself admitted were weak). That leaves noone to pass on teachings, and lets face it during that time they had more important things to worry about than training padawans. The First Jedi Purge wasn't really much of purge, because all the Jedi were already dead! A expect few, if any, new Jedi were trained until Meetra. So yeah, basically no combat experience was passed on - making that point moot.

Indeed the reason the Jedi managed to rebuild and grow strong was because they experienced 300 years of peace by which they could grow closer to the force, perfect teachings, and focus on study rather than become unbalanced by war. Times that by 3 and you've got the most powerful Jedi Order to ever exist. Let's also remember that that Order had no battle experience whatsoever, against the Sith. In fact they were in a similar position to the Jedi Order of the PT, believing the Sith to be extinct but still preparing for a possible war. As Malgus remarks:

"For 300 years we prepared, we grew stronger. While you rested in your cradle of power, believing your people were safe and protected...but you were deceived."

The Jedi Order of the Great Galactic War seem a lot more powerful than that of the Jedi Civil War, and I believe this is because of the period of peace they experienced. Not the period of war, that only weakened them. Take Satele Shan and her master - despite having no experience in war they went head to head with some of the most powerful Sith of the Sith Empire, Darth Malgus and Vindican. And Darach alone managed to dispatch Vindican. Pretty impressive for Jedi with no combat experience. Imagine that power times three and you have the PT Jedi Order, do you not?

And yes during the Great Galactic War some Jedi would have survived, but the key word there is some. Many would have been killed, that leaves less Jedi to train future generations, which means many Padawans would have received inadequate training. Its a question of numbers and you cannot argue against the fact that war depletes the numbers of Jedi, in particular the number of Jedi Guardians and Knights - these empty spaces are instead filled with consulars, and so future generations become less skilled in lightsaber combat in the immediate aftermath of war.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.23.2013 , 04:24 PM | #30
Psst Beni, you forgot..

Quote:
Cin Drallig's lightsaber instructor was none other than Master Yoda himself, and under Yoda's guidance, Drallig became an extremely skilled swordsman.

During the time of the Clone Wars, Master Drallig acted as the Jedi Order's battlemaster, making him the leading lightsaber combat instructor and one of the Jedi's top swordsmen.
Even Dooku acknowledged that GG would lose against him in the LOE.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.