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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.22.2013 , 05:08 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
The duel between Sidious and Windu is not a very good measurement of combat skill. It says all over the place that a large part of Sidious' style was to draw the enemy in and let them think they had the upper hand. He had nothing to gain by killing Windu before Skywalker arrived on the scene.

All evidence points to Sidious drawing out their duel before allowing himself to be disarmed, knowing that he could still kill Windu with lightning if he had to, but would rather allow Skywalker to arrive and manipulate him into completing his fall to the Dark Side. So we don't know if Windu was actually skilled enough to defeat Sidious.
They actually fought at a stalemate.

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Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Windu only won after exploiting a fear from Sidious(when really it was coming from Anakin.)

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He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.
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"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Still though Windu did win against Sidious in saber combat, it wasn't until Anakin's fear came into the situation.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
02.22.2013 , 07:05 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[COLOR=#CC9E42]He very likely defeats them, perhaps even with relative ease. Lets remember this is the Jedi that defeated the most powerful Sith Lord ever to come into existence, in pure lightsaber combat - that in itself speaks volumes for how far the Jedi Order has come.
Isn't the general consensus that Palpatine was playing for time so Anakin could arrive? I mean, Yoda was IIRC described as the best duelist in the Order and he couldn't beat Palpatine.

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Old Republic: Atris, Vrook Lamar, Kavar, Lonna Vash, Zez-Kai Ell - remember those guys? I expect vaguely as they were never displayed to be particularly powerful or to have achieved much, that is because they were not. Only Kavar and Vrook where known to have mastered multiple forms, none mastered all of them.

And then we have the Jedi Council of the Great Galatic War, whose Grand Master was easily defeated by Braden, a bounty hunter, with a single shot. The other members we know little about, but the only one who seems worthy of mention was Satele Shan.

Prequel Trilogy: Both Mace Windu and Yoda were mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and Mace Windu created his own. Kenobi was one of the most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history, mastering Soresu, Shii-Cho and Niman among others. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Plo Koon and Saesee Tinn where all renowned for being master lightsaber duelists as were almost every member of the Council.
I'd be wary about drawing conclusions from a character performance in a video game where they have to fight the PC Let's not forget that countless Jedi, including great masters of the Order, were slaughtered en masse by ordinary clone troopers.

I really feel bad for Kit Fisto, given his appalling 'stand there and squeal like a stuck pick' death at Palpatine's hands after putting up less of a fight than the younglings in the Temple.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.22.2013 , 11:12 PM | #13
I simply do not see any evidence that war damages a Jedi's combat skills. While Force sensitivity heightens the Jedi's reflexes and awareness of their weapon, the actual strength of that connection is not tied to their abilities with a lightsaber. I think this is rather clear also when Yoda and Dooku are having their little force showdown, and realize that they are at an impasse. They then resort to lightsabers, a wholly different arena.

The instructors during these times of war would have most likely had combat experience. As a lot of information regarding particular Jedi is rather sketchy, we can only infer things about how the Jedi were trained, and by whom. Since it is common for soldiers to rotate in and out of combat in order to keep them from burning out, we can only imagine that many Jedi must have done something similar during periods of sustained conflict.

In between these periods of sustained conflict, the Jedi who had fought in the war would have been instructing the newer generations, passing on their practical combat knowledge. Naturally, the First Jedi Purge would have seriously hindered the education of future Jedi. But with someone like the Jedi Exile (an extremely experienced warrior) to begin their training once more, they would have a good starting point. I would also point out that Luke Skywalker was in a very similar position following the Dark Times, and that he was able to train some extremely accomplished duelists.

While speaking of the Jedi Exile, it is true that she developed greater prowess and understanding of the Force while under Kreia's tutelage, she was already a seasoned combatant after the Mandalorian Wars. Also, it is difficult to think of ANY Jedi who would not benefit from her training. (And a good portion of the growth we see in KotOR II is simply the exile relearning old talents, polishing up rusty skills, so to speak).

Yes, Malak, Revan, and Exar Kun were noted duelists who fell to the Dark Side. However, this is likely one part hubris (Anakin Skywalker was also one of the foremost duelists in his time, who fell in large part to his arrogance and thirst for more power). I suppose this ties into the age old question asked by Luke, "Is the Dark Side stronger?" I won't attempt to answer that here, other than to say that Sith tend to be more formidable warriors simply due to their mindset and concentration on combat.

To say that Jaric Kaedan was a lesser duelist because of his focus on one style is a rather arbitrary statement. If anything, his vast experience with combat seems to have taught him that Juyo was the most effective form, leading him to specialize in it (much as Mace Windu did in his own age). Nowhere does it say that he did not learn the other forms, just that he did not spend as much time studying them. There seems to be a concept that "mastering all seven forms" confers a particular advantage on a swordsman, however, there is little evidence to suggest this.

Case in point, Cin Drallig. Vader did not take him by surprise at all, in fact it was the closest thing to a formal duel you could probably ask for. Cin Drallig was alerted to the approaching troops of the 501st Legion, and organized what Jedi were on hand to defend the temple. Vader sought out Cin Drallig and killed his apprentices in front of him before engaging Master Drallig and defeating him handily.

Another point, Master Kenobi. You've acknowledged him as one of the foremost swordsmen of the Jedi order, and yet he specialized in Soresu (with a dash of Ataru thrown in). Likewise, Dooku favored Makashi almost exclusively and was able to go toe to toe with Yoda (a student of every form, but mainly a practitioner of Ataru).

This isn't terribly relevant, but Kit Fisto's feat of "surviving briefly against Sidious" is less a product of his skill with a lightsaber and more due to the fact that Sidious just killed the other two Jedi first. He had a chance to raise his guard while Sidious dispatched his companions, but barely managed one or two parries. There are very few good things to say about his decision to "master" Shii-Cho.

I'm somewhat divided on the subject of the Jedi Master killed by the bounty hunter. You could make the case that the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt is rather an extraordinary case, seeing as he was able to kill an almost absurd number of creatures, characters, and droids. The flat fact of the matter is that the game mechanics make Jedi/Sith and non-Force users perfectly balanced with each other, which is why any scenario comparing the player characters from TOR with other Star Wars characters just gets messy.

And, yes, it's "G-Canon" that Windu defeated Sidious... but it is also perfectly plausible that Sidious WANTED Windu to defeat him. Windu wanted to arrest Sidious, and Sidious wanted to drag out their encounter until Anakin arrived. He needed to make himself look vulnerable and appeal to Anakin's suspicions that the Jedi were planning against Palpatine.

So, to conclude what I'm saying here: Jedi do not necessarily thrive on warfare, but it does hone their combat skills. The idea that the PT Jedi order had "mastered the art of lightsaber combat" is quite farcical. They did not have a fraction of the experience with combat (read: actual lightsaber duels) that the Jedi during the times of the Old Republic did. While the Jedi suffered setbacks during the First Jedi Purge, it seems quite clear that they recovered (much as Luke Skywalker's NJO did) and during the Great Galactic War they certainly got back on their game to fight the Sith.

There is not evidence to suggest that the few notable swordsmen to emerge from the Clone Wars era were exponentially more skilled than their Old Republic Era counterparts. In fact it seems that the body of evidence points in the opposite direction.

P.S. While I welcome Beni's feedback and counterarguments, I'd love to see anyone else weigh in on this discussion as well.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.22.2013 , 11:33 PM | #14
I'm not sure war diminishes a Jedi's combat prowess but peace does strengthen them moreso, being that they are able to focus their connection in The Force and also hone their lightsaber combat. They can't really do that, if there is a war going on now can they?

Though Vent am curious as to the point where Anakin defeated Cin handily bit, now granted in like...the 2 second holo vid we saw, we see Vader choking a padawan and fighting against Cin one handed I don't see how that is a full representation of what went down. But....ya know, given that Cin is the Temple Battlemaster(making him one of the top duelists), who was trained by Yoda specifically in saber combat, trained Obi-Wan and Anakin and was the last hope in stopping Operation: Knightfall, I don't see how he wouldn't be a challenge for Anakin. (Putting Plot Armor aside here for the moment.)

No this isn't fanboyism coming out, it just seems logical is all given who Cin is. Unless of course there is a source, saying otherwise but if not then I am none too sure.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.22.2013 , 11:44 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
I simply do not see any evidence that war damages a Jedi's combat skills. While Force sensitivity heightens the Jedi's reflexes and awareness of their weapon, the actual strength of that connection is not tied to their abilities with a lightsaber. I think this is rather clear also when Yoda and Dooku are having their little force showdown, and realize that they are at an impasse. They then resort to lightsabers, a wholly different arena.
Actually those who are strong in the Force and train heavily in lightsaber combat become extremely skilled swordsmen. The ability to use those deadly weapons at such speeds requires the heightened reflexes of a Jedi.

Also Dooku was being beaten slowly but surely. He was 'delaying the inevitable' against his former master.


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The instructors during these times of war would have most likely had combat experience. As a lot of information regarding particular Jedi is rather sketchy, we can only infer things about how the Jedi were trained, and by whom. Since it is common for soldiers to rotate in and out of combat in order to keep them from burning out, we can only imagine that many Jedi must have done something similar during periods of sustained conflict.
It is likely that combat instructors rotated out, but the time that they get to train these students is not very long. Mastering the use of a lightsaber takes time (unless you are a Skywalker, but that's kinda like cheating)

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In between these periods of sustained conflict, the Jedi who had fought in the war would have been instructing the newer generations, passing on their practical combat knowledge. Naturally, the First Jedi Purge would have seriously hindered the education of future Jedi. But with someone like the Jedi Exile (an extremely experienced warrior) to begin their training once more, they would have a good starting point. I would also point out that Luke Skywalker was in a very similar position following the Dark Times, and that he was able to train some extremely accomplished duelists.
Luke had the knowledge of the entire Jedi Order to guide him in his learning as well as the teaching of others. This includes Cin Dralligs teachings on dueling and the seven forms.

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Another point, Master Kenobi. You've acknowledged him as one of the foremost swordsmen of the Jedi order, and yet he specialized in Soresu (with a dash of Ataru thrown in). Likewise, Dooku favored Makashi almost exclusively and was able to go toe to toe with Yoda (a student of every form, but mainly a practitioner of Ataru).
Correction: Obi-Wan mastered Soresu, Dooku mastered Makashi, and Yoda mastered every form and mastered Ataru to the highest extent. It has been said that Kenobi and Dooku were THE masters of their chosen form.

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This isn't terribly relevant, but Kit Fisto's feat of "surviving briefly against Sidious" is less a product of his skill with a lightsaber and more due to the fact that Sidious just killed the other two Jedi first. He had a chance to raise his guard while Sidious dispatched his companions, but barely managed one or two parries. There are very few good things to say about his decision to "master" Shii-Cho.
In the ROTS novelization, Sidious cut down Tiin and Kolar in seconds. His speed caught them unaware. Not that they were going to last long against the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

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And, yes, it's "G-Canon" that Windu defeated Sidious... but it is also perfectly plausible that Sidious WANTED Windu to defeat him. Windu wanted to arrest Sidious, and Sidious wanted to drag out their encounter until Anakin arrived. He needed to make himself look vulnerable and appeal to Anakin's suspicions that the Jedi were planning against Palpatine.
Sidious was bringing his skills with the blade to bear on Mace Windu. He wasn't holding back in the duel. He only held back his Force power, and even then they reached a stalemate until Anakin arrived.

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So, to conclude what I'm saying here: Jedi do not necessarily thrive on warfare, but it does hone their combat skills. The idea that the PT Jedi order had "mastered the art of lightsaber combat" is quite farcical. They did not have a fraction of the experience with combat (read: actual lightsaber duels) that the Jedi during the times of the Old Republic did. While the Jedi suffered setbacks during the First Jedi Purge, it seems quite clear that they recovered (much as Luke Skywalker's NJO did) and during the Great Galactic War they certainly got back on their game to fight the Sith.
Except for the FACT that Yoda was preparing the Jedi Order for another war with the Sith. They learned from the previous wars, adapting their fighting styles, connecting themselves with The Force. Under his tutelage, the Jedi Order greatly advanced their skills in dueling, their prowess with The Force, and their battle tactics.

And to say that they don't fight in actual duels is simply false. From the point that they learn to properly hold a lightsaber or training sword, they take part in sparring with other students. This progresses to the Initiates tournaments and finally customary duels between Jedi Masters. You will probably say that a friendly duel is far more different than a life or death situation. It's really not. Especially considering the weapon that they are using. One wrong move, one mistake, and you're dead. This taught Jedi to keep their guard up and stay at the top of their game.


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There is not evidence to suggest that the few notable swordsmen to emerge from the Clone Wars era were exponentially more skilled than their Old Republic Era counterparts. In fact it seems that the body of evidence points in the opposite direction.
Of course I'm not saying that the Old Republic is completely and utterly out-classed. What I am saying is that you have grievously underestimated the dueling prowess of the great masters of the Jedi Council of the Prequels.

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P.S. While I welcome Beni's feedback and counterarguments, I'd love to see anyone else weigh in on this discussion as well.
You asked for it, I guess.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Sporadicus's Avatar


Sporadicus
02.22.2013 , 11:45 PM | #16
I think the old republic would beat the PT era for a simple reason.
Are our solders as strong as the Romans who had to cross desserts daily in sandals, only to set up camp, take it down and go again so it would become natural as for when they went for miles and miles then into battle, it would not tier them as it would become normal. answer no, would be a joke to compare. (obviously you can include other by gone warriors) Considering there was constant war, combat etc the jedi would be far better warriors then they were in the PT, even the sith would of been better back in the old republic for that reason alone. not to say plagius or sidious, yoda or mace were in any way weak, they sure was weren't. but just not as strong as the old warriors as they had no reason to fight for like 1000 years, so they would get weaker (both sith and jedi)
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.22.2013 , 11:46 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
I'm not sure war diminishes a Jedi's combat prowess but peace does strengthen them moreso, being that they are able to focus their connection in The Force and also hone their lightsaber combat. They can't really do that, if there is a war going on now can they?

Though Vent am curious as to the point where Anakin defeated Cin handily bit, now granted in like...the 2 second holo vid we saw, we see Vader choking a padawan and fighting against Cin one handed I don't see how that is a full representation of what went down. But....ya know, given that Cin is the Temple Battlemaster(making him one of the top duelists), who was trained by Yoda specifically in saber combat, trained Obi-Wan and Anakin and was the last hope in stopping Operation: Knightfall, I don't see how he wouldn't be a challenge for Anakin.

No this isn't fanboyism coming out, it just seems logical is all given who Cin is. Unless of course there is a source, saying otherwise but if not then I am none too sure.
Not to mention that we don't see the killing blow made. That could have been early in the duel, it could have been at the end.

Plus it was said that Cin Drallig (along with Shaak Ti) was Anakin's biggest threat during the battle.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.22.2013 , 11:48 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Sporadicus View Post
I think the old republic would beat the PT era for a simple reason.
Are our solders as strong as the Romans who had to cross desserts daily in sandals, only to set up camp, take it down and go again so it would become natural as for when they went for miles and miles then into battle, it would not tier them as it would become normal. answer no, would be a joke to compare. (obviously you can include other by gone warriors) Considering there was constant war, combat etc the jedi would be far better warriors then they were in the PT, even the sith would of been better back in the old republic for that reason alone. not to say plagius or sidious, yoda or mace were in any way weak, they sure was weren't. but just not as strong as the old warriors as they had no reason to fight for like 1000 years, so they would get weaker (both sith and jedi)
Your opinion, but the facts say otherwise.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.22.2013 , 11:53 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Not to mention that we don't see the killing blow made. That could have been early in the duel, it could have been at the end.

Plus it was said that Cin Drallig (along with Shaak Ti) was Anakin's biggest threat during the battle.
*Hisses like a cat at the mention of Shaak Ti* She ran away in the Temple's need!
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.23.2013 , 12:01 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
*Hisses like a cat at the mention of Shaak Ti* She ran away in the Temple's need!
That she did. But imagine if she had joined Cin Drallig in the battle. Would not have made Skywalker's time any easier, that's for sure.

But she still ran away. Wise decision? Or folly? Could be both.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus