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I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

TheBBP's Avatar


TheBBP
02.20.2013 , 03:06 PM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
My most memorable moment is when I get my Epic weapon, but was it really worth camping Venril Sathir for like 7 days?
Without a doubt. I'd like to say that I would do it again, but while I pine for the old days, I think that I am too spoiled to work like that again lol.
Jano Aras'im
Knight of the Old Republic
Saving the Galaxy since Master Muheeda was a Rodian
Ebon Hawk

TheBBP's Avatar


TheBBP
02.20.2013 , 03:14 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by JuntaKast View Post

To me the overarching issue is the simple fact that games are no longer typically designed or marketed for gamers anymore, not that this is ultimately a "bad" thing (it can be and has proven to be the case more and more.), they are marketed at the general consumer. Now I don't want to get too far up on my metaphorical high horse (and no it is not made of stars...) but I am sure that is bound to happen at various points through out this post, consider yourselves warned.
I think that the fact that to be a "AAA" MMO nowadays, that you have to cater to the most people possible. It is a bit sad that TOR seems to have been developed for the masses rather than the gamers. I do not mean that as a knock on TOR, but I do believe that games like this could benefit from targeting an audience and going after them rather than trying to sweep everyone under one game. EVE excels at this.

I absolutely love the story in TOR. I love the cutscenes and I love trying to win my conversation choice in multiplayer conversations. I am a big fan of the chosen classes. What I don't like is that we are all the "hero".

In a game like EQ, you felt as if you were one of MANY denizens of that world who were fighting to end (or expand) the evils in that world. I am more of a fan of that than being "The Chosen One". However, TOR does do a great job in the character story of making you feel like the Chosen One.
Jano Aras'im
Knight of the Old Republic
Saving the Galaxy since Master Muheeda was a Rodian
Ebon Hawk

Eldrenath's Avatar


Eldrenath
02.20.2013 , 03:22 PM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by mecher View Post
Your stupidity strikes us again.
I'm still waiting for you to describe how EVE Online is a such a massive failure when it's the only MMO to be running for so long and yet only have GAINED subs in the mean time.
This is definitely true, and you can't argue with it. The problem is that every major MMO release now wants to be the next WoW. There won't be another WoW unless Blizzard creates a WoW 2. EVE is a good example of a successful MMO that never was and never will be WoW, but they decided instead to make a niche game that would appeal very much to a certain type of gamer. The result is a loyal playerbase, but not a MASSIVE one. Just because an MMO doesn't have millions of subs doesn't mean it isn't a success, MMO players now judge all MMOs by whether or not they have have as many subs as WoW. None do, none will. EVE certainly doesn't--but it does what it does well and many players really, really enjoy it.

It comes down to this: do you want to make a mass-market game that appeals to as many folks as possible? That's great, but you have to understand that the more "mass-market, try to cater to everyone" you make a game, the fewer hard core players you will have that will stay for very prolonged periods of time. If instead you go into a niche and really try to be great at that niche then players that like that style will be very pleased. You might not get as MANY players, but many of the ones you get will stick around. Lots of people don't like sandbox, but lots of people do. EVE is pure sandbox, and there aren't many MMOs that cater to this market. So EVE has been a big success--not because it has 5 million players (it doesn't) but because the playerbase has sustained and even grown.

Eldrenath's Avatar


Eldrenath
02.20.2013 , 03:30 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBBP View Post
I think that the fact that to be a "AAA" MMO nowadays, that you have to cater to the most people possible. It is a bit sad that TOR seems to have been developed for the masses rather than the gamers. I do not mean that as a knock on TOR, but I do believe that games like this could benefit from targeting an audience and going after them rather than trying to sweep everyone under one game. EVE excels at this.

I absolutely love the story in TOR. I love the cutscenes and I love trying to win my conversation choice in multiplayer conversations. I am a big fan of the chosen classes. What I don't like is that we are all the "hero".

In a game like EQ, you felt as if you were one of MANY denizens of that world who were fighting to end (or expand) the evils in that world. I am more of a fan of that than being "The Chosen One". However, TOR does do a great job in the character story of making you feel like the Chosen One.
I think I typed my response at the same time you were typing yours. I very much agree with your points. I think SWTOR does the story very well. I know not everyone thinks so, but I do and I enjoy the story very much, even the story in the ops and the flashpoints. I've had many, many, many hours of fun playing alts and seeing different class stories, and doing light and dark side characters. It would be nice to be able to make a character that was "part" of the struggle rather than the central character in it, but everything has its downsides.

I definitely agree about the fact that AAA MMOs have to cater to the mass market. There's too much money on the line not to have to do so. MMOs take years to develop and many don't even make it onto the market. So you have to try to cater to as many players as possible, so we see fewer games that cater to certain niches of gamers.

skiibyrd's Avatar


skiibyrd
02.20.2013 , 03:41 PM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBBP View Post
Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?
SWTOR was my first MMO, im 24, and never had a PC to run computer games until about 4 years ago. I purchased WoW a couple years back, tried to get into it a couple times, then gave up on MMO's and continued console gaming and playing some other genre (Starcraft 2, minecraft, and a couple other RTS's).

When Swtor came out i had that feeling, but, it did not last as long as I thought it would. As a matter of a fact, I love this game, but already quit 2 times for about a month (but keep coming back). I now have Tera, WoW, Runes of Magic, Guildwars 2, and Rift expereince, but none of them could compare to swtor IMO.

It has a lot to do with them not having certain things the others do (Guild Quests, Acheivements (both player and guild), open world PvP, Guild gear, ect.). I absolutely love the game through, just wish they offered more for guilds to do, and work on.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
02.20.2013 , 03:42 PM | #146
Its interesting that people say there will never be another WOW.

At one point there was never going to be another NWN, there was never going to be another EQ, yet WOW still came. I admittedly never played WOW, but that was because by the time WOW was released I had already spent so much time in EQ, and EQ had just become a nonsensical grind fest after the release of Velious. I want dragon faction to dragon quests, oh wait now the guild wants giant faction for giant quests.

This game could be EQ good, it really just needs some slight tinkering. The problem is that tinkering would probably make the game more difficult, which just isnt allowable in todays market.

Eldrenath's Avatar


Eldrenath
02.20.2013 , 03:56 PM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
Its interesting that people say there will never be another WOW.

At one point there was never going to be another NWN, there was never going to be another EQ, yet WOW still came. I admittedly never played WOW, but that was because by the time WOW was released I had already spent so much time in EQ, and EQ had just become a nonsensical grind fest after the release of Velious. I want dragon faction to dragon quests, oh wait now the guild wants giant faction for giant quests.

This game could be EQ good, it really just needs some slight tinkering. The problem is that tinkering would probably make the game more difficult, which just isnt allowable in todays market.
Valid points, but not everyone enjoyed or would have enjoyed EQ. I'm 34 years old, I work full time, I have a wife and family obligations, and other hobbies. I would never pay for a sub to any game that involved long spawn camps, taking forever to accomplish anything, onerous death penalties, corpse runs, etc. I know some people like that type of gaming experience, and that's cool. But I would not like it at all, and would promptly cancel my subscription.

I like to log in, be run an op with guild mates, maybe a flashpoint, run an alt through story. Some gamers would consider me wanting "instant gratification" or EZ mode. And they would be right. I want to log in and do something. I might have only an hour or two to play, and its rare for me to have a 3+ hour stretch to play without interruption. When I was 17 I could play games for hours on end, but I can't now. I do not want to waste any of my time camping a spawn point or regaining lost xp from a death or anything like that.

I'm not saying all players are like me, but I suspect (not based on empirical evidence, mind you, just an opinion) that taking this game in the direction of UO or in any way back to the ways of the old hard-core MMOs would result in many players quitting. I can't say that is a fact, but I can say it is a fact that I would stop playing.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
02.20.2013 , 04:13 PM | #148
Oh I agree. Ive previously said that I dont even know if I would play EQ today, just because of the nonsense. The reason I enjoy SWTOR is because I can actually play the game by myself for a few hours and actually enjoy it.

There just was more wonderment in a game like Everquest, where you could get legitimately lost, find yourself in an area that is way too hard and maybe have trouble actually getting your gear back. Im sure there are still corpses of mine in Everfrost that I never found when I was a new player.

That is not to say that game is better. Its just you have a greater sense of satisfaction when you had to struggle for everything.

CosmicKat's Avatar


CosmicKat
02.20.2013 , 04:23 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by MarvelZombie View Post
Speaking just of the U.S.:

There's an article from 2009 stating that 46 million people in the US play MMOs. Another article from 2011 puts this number at 39 million active U.S. MMO players.

It's currently estimated that there are 315 million people in the U.S. as of 2012. That's somewhere around 8-9% of people in the U.S. playing some form of MMO (F2P or otherwise). That's pretty impressive considering when you account for demographics and other limiations (gotta have internet, computers are not in every household, etc....). I expect that this percentage will grow over time now that mobile gaming has introduced millions of people to the concept of gaming with others online....and companies are following suit: just take a gander at Bungie's Destiny project...
Those are crazy numbers that can't possibly be accurate if counting just MMO's.

WoW peaked at something like 10 million world-wide and it probably has more subscribers than all other MMO's combined. The majority of those "subscriptions" are Asian market and not on the same level, dollar-wise, as Western accounts.

Last official word we had was TOR was sitting around 500k subscribers, and it was #2 in subscriber numbers.

So, unless there is some top secret MMO out there with 30 million secret subscribers, then those numbers are pure fantasy.

TheBBP's Avatar


TheBBP
05.23.2013 , 02:47 AM | #150
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
Oh I agree. Ive previously said that I dont even know if I would play EQ today, just because of the nonsense. The reason I enjoy SWTOR is because I can actually play the game by myself for a few hours and actually enjoy it.

There just was more wonderment in a game like Everquest, where you could get legitimately lost, find yourself in an area that is way too hard and maybe have trouble actually getting your gear back. Im sure there are still corpses of mine in Everfrost that I never found when I was a new player.

That is not to say that game is better. Its just you have a greater sense of satisfaction when you had to struggle for everything.
It is not my intention to say that any game is better than another. They are too hard to compare when they are so different. I will stand by the fact that no other game has left me in a sense of wonder like EQ did.
Jano Aras'im
Knight of the Old Republic
Saving the Galaxy since Master Muheeda was a Rodian
Ebon Hawk