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I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

Elfa's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 07:47 AM | #131
I'm afraid MMO's have for the most part reached maximum entropy. Sure there are tweaks that can be made, but there will be no new big leaps until the breakthrough of AI.

With that breakthrough, you will finally have a true living virtual world.
I'd like to sit down with the guy responsible for having Busta Rhymes fight Michael Myers in HALLOWEEN RESURRECTION. Then, before he could speak, I would slap him so hard his face would explode and his dog would die." - Jim Law

Eldrenath's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 08:18 AM | #132
Meh. Nothing is ever as good as when you first discovered it. My first MMO was LOTRO, shortly after it launched. It was amazing to me, I'd never experienced any game like it. I loved that there were tons of other players, I loved the ongoing persistent world feel.

5 years later, and I've played quite a few MMOs in the interim. None have captured what LOTRO was for me when I first logged in, because nothing could have been my first MMO experience again. It's the same with other things in life: I play music a lot, and I really enjoy it. I'm not a professional musician, I'm a hobbyist that plays in a couple local bands and plays gigs once or twice a month. I still enjoy it, but it is NOTHING like the first time I got to do it.

People look at things in the past through rose colored glasses. Perhaps their first time playing UO or some of the older MMOs they were teenagers or younger, they discovered something completely new to them and it made them very happy. But a lot of that isn't the GAME that people remember fondly, it's that NEW experience and perhaps pleasant reminiscing about a very nice time in their lives.

CosmicKat's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 10:52 AM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by MariaD View Post
This is not true anymore. The majority of people in the Western world play computer games. It's just that they are now much older than we were "back in the day" - the average age of a gamer now is 36 and climbing. And they are much, much, MUCH more casual on the average. Not even "Hello Kitty Island Adventure" casual, more like "Words with friends" casual.

So companies are going after people like that. "Your mom" - literally.
The combined total of all subscribers of all MMO's in the Western world is miniscule. It's less, much less, than 1% of the population.

CosmicKat's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 11:40 AM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
I'm afraid MMO's have for the most part reached maximum entropy. Sure there are tweaks that can be made, but there will be no new big leaps until the breakthrough of AI.

With that breakthrough, you will finally have a true living virtual world.
That doesn't explain why mob AI in TOR looks like something from an Xbox action game. Mob AI in other MMO's and solo games (including most Bioware games, they do know how to program AI) is head and shoulders above any I've seen in TOR.

Drebs's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 01:01 PM | #135
What has happened?


If SWTOR had come out 10 years ago, it would've been the most amazing thing we'd ever experienced in PC gaming. But the new hotness quickly fades and is replaced by a newer, more innovative hotness. Nothing will maintain appeal forever.

Many MMOs releasing that have been in development have wanted to be WoW. I think its only in this past year, with the lukewarm reception of SWTOR and other games going free-to-play that the industry has realized gamers don't want another WoW. Gamers want something new and unexpected.

I look at something like Destiny, and think maybe that will have what it takes. Or maybe the foundry system in Neverwinter will redefine the MMO endgame. I'm not sure where the next dazzling formula will come from, but some developer will eventually find it, and we'll be amazed again.

In the meantime, there are great games all around, whether for console, iPad, even in-browser. They don't all provide the sense of wonder and exploration a lot of us crave, but there's plenty to be appreciated, just as there is in SWTOR.

Alpine's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 01:12 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Harleyquincey View Post
A wonderful thread if you ask me. This is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about some years ago. For me it all began with my first MMO which was good old Ultima Online and I played that for straight 10 years (sounds weirder now that I wrote it than it felt). That alone might tell you how much it amazed me and stunned me for many years - but as any MMO even this amazement has faded, without switching the game. So it cannot have something to do with that or with a specific game "missing" things, at least not from my perspective since I never switched it and the feeling still disappeared. One might ponder if it was all because I was so used to it - but that was not the case either, since after those 10 years I did switch a lot and was in many many betas (Everquest 2 among them btw) - but none has stunned me or had an equally charming appeal to me. Partially that was because I was not willing to sacrifice the huge amount of roleplay we had going in UO, part of that certainly can never be explained properly and some parts of it I have discovered after pondering, I think.

What really makes a game shine and stand out, amaze you and drag you in - I for one had a good amount of that reappearing when I began to play SW:TOR with my spouse. That amazed me and I pondered and thought about why it happened here but didn't happen in EQ2, in Eve Online, in DaOC, in Neocron 2 or any other MMO since Ultima Online. Then I started to compare those and eventhough SW:TOR is much much different from UO it does have certain core features that link both, and first of all that is: having an interesting lore and universe. I remember that back in UO I used to frequent a website about it and even printed out the lore stuff from there as well as some newbie guides - and I found myself archiving lots of lore content and spending many many hours on Wookieepedia when I began with SW:TOR because I was sincerely interested in the lore (I always had a soft spot for the original SW movies but I never was a die hard fan... until sw:tor).

A second link certainly is the feeling of being part of something glorious, something very new and shining - as for example sw:tors countless cut-scenes and dialogues that never fail to amaze me, right now I am deeply in love with the designs for the Grey Secant (Tron, anyone?) and this feeling has not faded ever since, I still consider sw:tor to be the top of the list when it comes to quest narration and I can understand why a MMO does not offer tons of different solutions to quests (it would be an insane workload) - rather than wasting my energy on lamenting about that, I do enjoy the hilarious one-liners for example my Bounty Hunter drops ("I maybe negotiated with his face a little."). That one even made it into Real-Life communication with friends and guildmates here.

Third comes the last link I have discovered that might have something to do with the affect - and that is the game's level of thought. To explain what I mean with this - I do mean the way things are designed and the reason behind that. See.. as I have been in many betas, many MMOs and such I did see tons of bad decisions. When I began SW:TOR I was repeatedly being heard saying things like "Wow, they thought about that? That's quite amazing" and "So.. they blocked this since it could lead to that exploit? Cool thing" - and that is just part of what I thought. Sure, there were and still are bugs in SW:TOR but I dont know any MMO without bugs, nor do I think I ever will. The reason why this amazes me and makes me happy and feel "magic" is because of the way the Devs approach the community - they do it on par but they also do NOT feed the trolls, they don't say "Oh sure we will quickly do as you asked us to do! Sorry, dear customer! Will be fixed right now!" but instead they evaluate community reports as much as their own data. Trust me, fellow readers, that is so incredibly rare and brave that it amazes me. It is the same reason why the Ultima Online community never had many problems with whinery and players "demanding" things in the long run - because they knew that was pointless. Solutions were found where they were needed and if someone was being ganked all day long and robbed clean of all items (that was possible in UO) ...then it was his bad personal luck and his fault for carrying around all the valueables he had. No use to complain. That is essentially how it is here and I really appreciate this. The absolutely worst community-to-staff communication I have ever ever ever witnessed was in "Champions Online" - the staff made hotfixes over hotfixes so much that the expression Flavor of the Month was reduced to Flavor of the Patch, as in classes being completely revamped every few weeks, their skills being changed drastically every few weeks and all of that just due to whining in forums.

All of this is parts of the reasons why SW:TOR still amazes me and keeps me hooked. Yes, the magic of the first half year has faded - but now I enjoy the harder content more and more and I take my time about it, as does my guild. We like things close-knit, familiar, on our own pace. That does keep the magic alive on quite some weekends and I dare say that this is also our own achievement and also our own burden. We try to make things special, try to really stand out together in the way we communicate with each other and try to achieve a shared-consciousness level tactical understanding of each another.

Sorry for the very long post but it really was needed to vent this here along with my thoughts on the various reasons for what might lack - and that is "Not much" since the main thing that lacks imho is for people to get together and do outstanding stuff together. Just wait until the first musicians among us create sw:tor songs (Midas, I miss you)

My gosh that was a wonderful read!
A'lpine * Prophecy of the Five

Soxbadger's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 01:49 PM | #137
Its an interesting thread and like many others my first serious MMO (EQ) is the one that had the most wonderment.

But EQ was also different in that there were very little handouts, especially pre-Kunark expansion. Hell levels, exp loss and some classes didnt even have quest armor. Raids of 50 people, complete wipes, having to find scattered bodies, camping rare spawns, etc. My most memorable moment is when I got my Epic weapon, but was it really worth camping Venril Sathir for like 7 days?

SWTOR is a fun game, but the risk/fear just isnt there like it was in EQ. That being said, I dont even know if I would enjoy EQ anymore. Part of me likes the laid back lifestyle and being able to level at a decent pace.

MarvelZombie's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 01:58 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by CosmicKat View Post
The combined total of all subscribers of all MMO's in the Western world is miniscule. It's less, much less, than 1% of the population.
Quote: Originally Posted by CosmicKat View Post
The combined total of all subscribers of all MMO's in the Western world is miniscule. It's less, much less, than 1% of the population.
Speaking just of the U.S.:

There's an article from 2009 stating that 46 million people in the US play MMOs. Another article from 2011 puts this number at 39 million active U.S. MMO players.

It's currently estimated that there are 315 million people in the U.S. as of 2012. That's somewhere around 8-9% of people in the U.S. playing some form of MMO (F2P or otherwise). That's pretty impressive considering when you account for demographics and other limiations (gotta have internet, computers are not in every household, etc....). I expect that this percentage will grow over time now that mobile gaming has introduced millions of people to the concept of gaming with others online....and companies are following suit: just take a gander at Bungie's Destiny project...

MariaD's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 02:25 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by MarvelZombie View Post
Speaking just of the U.S.:

There's an article from 2009 stating that 46 million people in the US play MMOs. Another article from 2011 puts this number at 39 million active U.S. MMO players.
Thank you for the links. If you talk about other types of social games, the numbers are even higher. People play online with other people... and they are gamers, even if they don't raid for 3 hours a night. The demographics changed A LOT in the last twenty years, as well.
More seductive

mecher's Avatar

02.20.2013 , 02:43 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear View Post
So false

SWG (all 30k of them remaining at end) Want pre CU back

Truth is SWG lost subs just as fast as TOR does
The two games run very simular sub loss patterns and time lines actually

The good news for you is you get that game from all reports in Arch Age and guess we find out a year after its release how popular your Sandbox really is (If all the failed sandbox designs thus far havent convinced you)

Im not saying SW:TOR great btw.
Its not and im about done with game.
This event pushed me over the limit of my patience in waiting for things to get done right

But there IS a reason SWG did so many game change designs and it WASNT just to be like WOW (as the vocal few like to claim)
They had mass sub loss issues from the get go as well and were trying to patch the leaky ship
All these now rose colored glasses reviews you read here do NOT accurately describe the truth of SWG and the plethora of issues the game encountered and the constantly shrinking subscription pool of players.

TOR right now has ALLOT MORE subs then SWG had after its first year (But TOR drawing from a much bigger pool so thats not really the compliment it sounds like)

Fact is were still waiting for the Star wars MMORPG that captures STAR WARS FRANCHISE

TOR is WOW with a Star Wars shell
SWG was UO with a Star Wars shell
now if only a developer would make STAR WARS with a Star Wars shell

LOL, if SWG was even as remotely popular and profitable as you all claim
It would still be open and running and Lucas Arts would have scoffed at idea of closing it to make room for TOR
Your stupidity strikes us again.

The people who remained with SWG at the end were the ones who enjoyed the NGE.

The simple fact a MMO has never lost a bigger percentage of it's playerbase then the NGE did shows how dumb you are for using that as an example of how Sandbox games fail.

And no it is a fact the NGE was made to make SWG more like WoW. Those mass sub loses you talk about is ********.

ArchAge is just another craptastic Korean MMO in the making, anyone who believes otherwise is as clueless as you are.

And SWG was popular, as I said in a post you had to ignore because you can't counter any of it, it's the bugs that never were fixed and the only content that was being added was WoWified is what killed the game off.

I'm still waiting for you to describe how EVE Online is a such a massive failure when it's the only MMO to be running for so long and yet only have GAINED subs in the mean time.