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Golden Guide - Voidstar

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Golden Guide - Voidstar

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
02.20.2013 , 11:23 AM | #21
My problem now is I'M NOT GETTING ANY VS!!! I swear, I've gotten like 1 since you put this guide out. How the heck am I supposed to practice this? I think it's a conspiracy by Bioware. Now that you've dissected their map, they are going to stop popping it.

You should do a guide for AHG. I get those all the time now (which is fine, because I like that map).

Naej's Avatar


Naej
02.20.2013 , 11:37 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by SpoeMeister View Post
I'm not calling myself an expert, but I'll try to summarize the things I usually do in a voidstar. Note: my gunslinger is only L40 atm, but I can try to set some basic tips for the AC.

Defending

Rule 1: Because the Sniper is a ranged class, I tend to put myself way in the back.

Avoiding the zerg and keeping your distance from the objective will put the attackers in a tight spot. Attackers go near the node, where melees will stop them while I support their DPS. Or they come for me, but they'll be too far from the node, stalling for time.

Rule 2: Sniper have many CC tools, don't abuse them
1. Baseline CC tools:
- Debilitate/Dirty Kick: A 4 second hard stun at melee range.
- Flashbang/Flash Grenade: An 8 second AOE mezz, 30m range.
- Pulse Detonator/Cover Pulse: AoE knockback and a 5 second root on all affected targets. First 2 seconds it doesn't break.
- Leg Shot: 5 second root. First 2 seconds it doesn't break on damage.

2. Spec specific CC tools:
- Marksmanship/Sharpshooter: Knockback on Aimed Shot/Ambush.
- Saboteur/Engineering: Slow on single target ability + slow on AoE area ability + 2 second stun when these two are combined
- Lethality/Dirty Fighting: Slow on AoE ability

3. When to use CC:
- Flashbang/Flash Grenade: I usually use this during transition phases, where everyone is trying to get to the screens. I make this decision because not everyone has their CC breaker available and usually they focus on moving forward instead of fighting. This can make some people really fall behind.
- Debilitate/Dirty Kick: I only use this for self defence
- Pulse Detonator/Cover pulse: I use this to peel multiple enemies of myself or a teammate (usually healers). It's also fun to sit in cover on the bridge and knock them off.
- Slows and roots: Leg Shot I use to keep a target in my LOS, just before a Trickshot/Followthrough or Quickdraw/Takedown. It gives me a chance to load up an explosive probe/Sabotage Charge and a Aimed Shot/Ambush. The slows are usually inherent to DPS abilities, so there's no real strategic use.

4. When NOT to use CC:
- When there's a zerg going on at a node, do NOT throw a Flashbang/Flash Grenade because there's too much AoE and it would just fill resolve.

Rule 3: Pick multiple sweetspots and alternate between them

Rule 1 states that you find a place in the back, away from the zerg, in hopes of staying unnoticed for as long as possible. Off course, remaining stationary will work for only so long, so switch place from time to time. I will try and give some sweet spots of my own, based upon the zones that were given by Polymerize.

Zone 1
- Behind the furthest pillar when you exit the spawn area, close to the health pot.
Advantages: You also protect the health pot. If you see an enemy desperately running for the pot, root and destroy and/or take the health pot. Second advantage is that with the big pillar, you can go fairly unnoticed.
Disadvantages: Your line of sight is obstructed by the pillar. Furthermore, if and when you are noticed, enemies can use that pillar to close in on you. Finally, although a minor issue, you will be the last to arrive on the other side of the fence when reacting to an inc. You have no own speed buffs and you are probably furthest away.

- Against the fence in the middle of the zone, close to the gap in the fence (where you go to switch sides).
Advantages: The most obvious advantage is the ability to quickly switch sides. Another advantage is that you're close to an expertise buff. Everytime it reappears you can just take it. This is a good spot to put pressure on the healers/casters that want to stand in the back.
Disadvantage: You are very susceptible for respawns that want to attack you in the back. Luckily, they can't charge/pull you as long as you stay in cover. You therefore always need to check your surroundings. Also, if you are sitting too far, you can't reliably stop a cap.

- Close to the boxes just on the side of the node next to the respawn area.
Advantage: You are probably just outside of the zergfest for the door, but you are still close enough to provide extra defenses with your scrambling field/Ballistic Shield for your teammates.
Disadvantage: You are just as easily not outside of the zergfest. Move if that's the case.

Sweet spot No No:
Don't sit right in front of the door. You are now in melee zerg zone.
Don't go and climb that fancy plane, thinking you're high and dry. You will only be able to hit respawns at a certain point. It's utterly useless.
Don't sit on the ramp just outside of the spawn area. Seriously, you have no view whatsoever on the nodes.

Zone 2
- Just when you enter the room with the bridge, go to the opposide side of where the consoles are and stay as close to the door walls as possible, while keeping a 25-30m distance of the console.
Advantages: People tend to tunnel vision the console when they enter. You can stall caps from there. When melee want to attack you, they are further from the console.
Disadvantages: The moment people notice you, you are a sitting duck. Healers tend to stay in the center stage between the two consoles to easily heal both sides. That possibly means you will get no healing.

- Center stage near the expertise buff.
Advantages: You can easily control both sides of the consoles, delaying opening the bridge. Furthermore, you can use the expertise buff every time it reappears. You are also a good lure so friendly PT's/Assassins on the other side can pull them off, if they are clever enough to see it. Engineering/Saboteur specs can very easily delay console caps with Orbital Strike/XS Freighter Flyby on one side and Plasma Probe/Incendiary Grenade on the other.
Disadvantage: Obvious disadvantage is that enemy respawns land on top of you. You'll also have to move out of cover a lot of times to avoid LOS-capping on both sides.

Sweet Spot No No:
Again, I will never sit right next to a console.

Zone 3
- The pillars closest to your spawn area (next to the ramp with the expertise buff).
Advantage: If you place yourself properly, enemies coming from the bridge won't easily see you. This is especially true if there are some melee teammates waiting in front of the node. You also have an easy transition between the two sides AND you can halt enemies coming from the other side.
Disadvantage: When entrench is not up, there are some fairly easy combos to eliminate you easily, most notably a juggernauts/Guardians Force Push.

- Next to the health pot.
Advantages: Again, I am now in control of who will take the health pot. The pillars are now closer to the bridge, so LOS'ing you will be more difficult.
Disadvantage: People will see you this time. You are slow to reach the other side. Smart enemies coming from the bridge will be able to LOS you for as long as possible using the pillars that are now close to the bridge.

Sweet Spot No No:
- Never right in front of a door.
- Next to the ramp is OK, on the ramp not OK.

I need to test whether or not it's possible to sit on the edge of the ramp just below the spawn area and check the LOS issues from here.

Zone 4
A lot of people tend to stop running and go for the first console, but some of them go for the last. I base my location on what is needed, but I'll almost be close to the second console. The distance to the first console is still enough for my range and I can rapidly switch to the last console in case of cap. it also gives me a first free shot on people respawning, rooting them there for example when they fall to little ledger below.

Zone 5
Here, I like to sit just on the corner right when we leave the spawn area. It gives the possibility to quickly switch between sides without even moving that much.

I actually don't have that much information regarding this zone because we usually don't get there.

Attacking


I will have to write this some other time, but there's one thing I'm thinking of, based on your rule:

As a ranged DPS, you can have good view on the door. Keep your burst for the right time.



AGAIN, I'm no expert. I don't even have the class on 50 yet. Just my thoughts from playing in low level pvp. Maps don't change when you reach 50 :-)
NIcely done.

For attacking, my new strat (after learning about the "ticks" on the door, thx to Polymerize) is to sit in view of both the door and the defending respawn door. There you can count ticks, burst down at the right time, CC someone that's going for a friend capping the door etc. In the first zone, you can even be next to a pilar while watching both, meaning you'll be able to abuse the LoS.

Nice guid Poly!
Naej - 50 Jedi Guardian / Eljian - 50 Gunslinger [AWAKEN - PotF]
Furlone - 38 Vanguard / Jaen - 45 Jedi Shadow / Florune - 11 Mercenary / Jyang - 11 Operative

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.20.2013 , 12:48 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Naej View Post
NIcely done.

For attacking, my new strat (after learning about the "ticks" on the door, thx to Polymerize) is to sit in view of both the door and the defending respawn door. There you can count ticks, burst down at the right time, CC someone that's going for a friend capping the door etc. In the first zone, you can even be next to a pilar while watching both, meaning you'll be able to abuse the LoS.

Nice guide Poly!
Thanks! I'm excited and motivated to know that some people understand the message I'm trying to convey; and are more importantly trying to implement it into their gameplay.

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.20.2013 , 12:50 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
My problem now is I'M NOT GETTING ANY VS!!! I swear, I've gotten like 1 since you put this guide out. How the heck am I supposed to practice this? I think it's a conspiracy by Bioware. Now that you've dissected their map, they are going to stop popping it.

You should do a guide for AHG. I get those all the time now (which is fine, because I like that map).
AHG will probably be the last map I make a guide for; I have not played a ton since that map came out so I have not really broken it down to an intricate level.

I hope you get some Voidstars soon and let me know how these strategies work for you.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.20.2013 , 01:31 PM | #25
Quote:
Rule #1

Attackers should not kill Defenders when Transition Mode is in effect.
In my WZ experience, it turns out that this strategy only works against a) bad players and/or b) players who aren't using classes. I strongly discourage it.

Decent players, if allowed to live, will hold a transition mode force field for up to 2 minutes; I do it all the time on my Scrapper because people just try to CC without actually killing me. That lets me restealth, drop a bombardment on one console, and then harass the other console. And that's even after every other ally on my side is dead on the transition side of the force field, let alone all the time wasted killing those allies.

Here is a list of classes that really need to be killed because a decent player will be able to stop a force field opening. Heck, even an average or subpar player can use these classes to really mess up your transition mode offense.

1) Scoundrels: Evasion --> Disappearing Act is a nightmare for attackers. So is Flashbang. So is Freighter Flyby. So is Thermal Grenade. So is Sleep Dart.
2) Shadows: Shroud (Especially 5second Shroud) + Speed + Force Cloak is also a nightmare. Mind Maze is also just as problematic as Sleep Dart (although it is less spammable)
3) Sages: Fadeout Speed removes all slows/snares and grants slow/snare immunity. Good Bubbling can keep a team locked down for 6 seconds on its own. Force Wave has a big range, doesn't have to be aimed, and takes everyone off the door.
4) Marauders (don't know the Pub ability names): Intimidating Roar + Force Camouflage + Charge can really keep the attackers tangled up.

Just trying to CC lock these guys is a great way to get your offense stuck for 2+ minutes on a bridge. Just focusing offensive resources into murdering them outright gets you the bridge in 30-45 seconds.

Ultimately, it's a gamble. If you kill them, you have a much better chance of taking the bridge in a much shorter time. But then you won't get your awesome transition push against understaffed defenders on a door; everyone will have just respawned. On the other hand, if you don't kill the defenders in transition mode, you might be able to make a nice transition attack past the bridge...or you might get tangled up and waste a ton of time. The gamble is still balanced on the side of the first option, just because if you took the first door you probably have the resources to take the second door given enough time. Gambling on the second option can really cut into that badly needed time.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.20.2013 , 01:43 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
In my WZ experience, it turns out that this strategy only works against a) bad players and/or b) players who aren't using classes. I strongly discourage it.

Decent players, if allowed to live, will hold a transition mode force field for up to 2 minutes; I do it all the time on my Scrapper because people just try to CC without actually killing me. That lets me restealth, drop a bombardment on one console, and then harass the other console. And that's even after every other ally on my side is dead on the transition side of the force field, let alone all the time wasted killing those allies.

Here is a list of classes that really need to be killed because a decent player will be able to stop a force field opening. Heck, even an average or subpar player can use these classes to really mess up your transition mode offense.

1) Scoundrels: Evasion --> Disappearing Act is a nightmare for attackers. So is Flashbang. So is Freighter Flyby. So is Thermal Grenade. So is Sleep Dart.
2) Shadows: Shroud (Especially 5second Shroud) + Speed + Force Cloak is also a nightmare. Mind Maze is also just as problematic as Sleep Dart (although it is less spammable)
3) Sages: Fadeout Speed removes all slows/snares and grants slow/snare immunity. Good Bubbling can keep a team locked down for 6 seconds on its own. Force Wave has a big range, doesn't have to be aimed, and takes everyone off the door.
4) Marauders (don't know the Pub ability names): Intimidating Roar + Force Camouflage + Charge can really keep the attackers tangled up.

Just trying to CC lock these guys is a great way to get your offense stuck for 2+ minutes on a bridge. Just focusing offensive resources into murdering them outright gets you the bridge in 30-45 seconds.

Ultimately, it's a gamble. If you kill them, you have a much better chance of taking the bridge in a much shorter time. But then you won't get your awesome transition push against understaffed defenders on a door; everyone will have just respawned. On the other hand, if you don't kill the defenders in transition mode, you might be able to make a nice transition attack past the bridge...or you might get tangled up and waste a ton of time. The gamble is still balanced on the side of the first option, just because if you took the first door you probably have the resources to take the second door given enough time. Gambling on the second option can really cut into that badly needed time.
I state that if your Transition is halted, you should proceed to wipe out all Defenders. I stated the specific situation you allude to here:



"Transition Mode starts the moment after the first set of bomb doors have blown up. Transition Mode will stay in effect until either your team's transition is halted, or your team reaches the end of the map and arms the last set of bomb doors.

Examples of a team's transition getting halted.

> Your team arms the first bomb. It blows up. Your team transitions poorly and does not open the bridge before Defenders get to the bridge. You must now wipe out all of the Defenders in order to open the bridge.

> Your team arms the second bomb. It blows up. Your team transitions poorly and does not open the barriers before Defenders get to the barriers. You must now wipe out all of the Defenders in order to open the barriers.

> Your team arms the first bomb. It blows up. Your team transitions well to the bridge and opens it before Defenders can get to the bridge. One of your teammates does not know the rules of Transition Mode and he kills a Defender after the first set of bomb doors have blown up. Your teammates that have made it across the bridge already do not successfully arm the second set of bomb doors because the Defender that was killed has already spawned and stalls your team until the rest of the Defenders make it across the bridge. You must now apply your Attacker's Golden Rules in order to arm the second set of bomb doors because your transition has been halted."



So if the Transition Mode is halted, you must kill all Defenders; and then revert back to your Golden Rules.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.20.2013 , 01:56 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Polymerize View Post
I state that if your Transition is halted, you should proceed to wipe out all Defenders. I stated the specific situation you allude to here:
I am saying that this is a misleading rule because the defenders, if they are good, will ALWAYS halt a transition. The alternate situation (them not halting you) never happens. Unless you are playing against a bad team, there will never be an opportunity to just stun and CC the defenders as you take a door. The Ops/Sins/Sorcs/Mars will just mess up the transition and eat time.

Your other rules are (more or less) universalizable regardless of the skill of the enemy team. Against both good and bad teams, you always want to time your kills on offense, protect the door intelligently on defense, and be aware of the respawn timer for both (yes, there's more to it than that, but I am just summarizing).

But the transition rule should just be "Kill the defenders" instead of "Kill the defenders if halted"; they will ALWAYS halt you unless they are bad. If they are bad, your killing them isn't going to make you lose the match. If they are good, attempts to halt them are just going to waste your own offensive clock. If players waste their time trying to CC good defenders, not killing them immediately, the defenders will have that much more HP with which they can work to mess up the offense.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.20.2013 , 03:27 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
I am saying that this is a misleading rule because the defenders, if they are good, will ALWAYS halt a transition. The alternate situation (them not halting you) never happens. Unless you are playing against a bad team, there will never be an opportunity to just stun and CC the defenders as you take a door. The Ops/Sins/Sorcs/Mars will just mess up the transition and eat time.

Your other rules are (more or less) universalizable regardless of the skill of the enemy team. Against both good and bad teams, you always want to time your kills on offense, protect the door intelligently on defense, and be aware of the respawn timer for both (yes, there's more to it than that, but I am just summarizing).

But the transition rule should just be "Kill the defenders" instead of "Kill the defenders if halted"; they will ALWAYS halt you unless they are bad. If they are bad, your killing them isn't going to make you lose the match. If they are good, attempts to halt them are just going to waste your own offensive clock. If players waste their time trying to CC good defenders, not killing them immediately, the defenders will have that much more HP with which they can work to mess up the offense.
I understand the points you are making.

Let me start by stating that this guide is not specifically for RATED teams; it is for PUGs and RATEDs alike.

That being said, let me say that I agree with you. If both teams are doing EVERYTHING they should be doing; Attackers should not be able to Transition through the map to the next bomb and arm it without being halted. Why is this? It is because Attackers and Defenders have equal advantage to progress to the bridge after the first set of doors have been armed (with the slight disadvantage to Defenders who die after during the 20 seconds that the bomb is ticking down since they will be in their respawn chamber), because both teams will have an equal amount of CC to use at their discretion.

So yes, two good teams versus each other will try to counteract each other.

Defenders will use CC to stop Attackers from progressing; therefore halting them.

Attackers will use CC to stall Defenders in order to Transition.



The fact of the matter is, teams are not doing EVERYTHING they should in order to give themselves the biggest advantage they can get to prepare for a Transition. I've watched numerous Rated matches in which after a bomb is armed, Attackers and Defenders essentially split sides of the map and progress up opposite corridors to the bridge.

>Defenders down the corridor on the side opposite of the bomb that is armed.
>Attackers down the corridor on the side that the bomb was armed.

Attackers are too concerned with the bomb getting disarmed.
If a bomb ever gets disarmed, its a complete fluke. 3 Attackers should be able to hold off 7 Defenders from trying to disarm the bomb.
Defenders are too concerned with dying in the attempt to disarm the bomb or stall the Attackers from progressing right after the bomb has blown.
They will spawn without being able to try to stall the Attackers at the bridge because they spawn on the other side of the bridge.

I was going to include in this as I continued to beef up the guide, but you beat me to the issue.

As Attackers, you need to prepare for Transition Mode to begin.

Attackers should send teammates down both corridors. Attackers should never send everyone down one corridor in the attempt to choke the Defenders by the damage buff (by the bridge) because each team will be progressing up the map equally fast and Attackers will easily be halted if they try to CC Defenders at that late of a point in the Transition.

Attackers should try to CC/stall the Defenders at the door that was not armed as soon as the doors blow off.

Once again, Defenders do not want to go to the side that was armed because they will be afraid to die right after the bomb is armed because they will spawn and be out of the battle for an extended period of time. (this could actually work to their advantage ultimately, but will it lead to the Attackers getting the bridge quicker.)

So in the situation that Defenders try to counteract the Attackers stalling the side of the map that was not armed by sending Defenders to stall the side that was armed, at that point you will want to kill the Defender(s) that try to stall the Attackers. I rarely see this situation though it is the correct move for Defenders to make.



This will be explained in much more detail in the guide; such as what Classes would be best to send as Attackers to stall the Defenders on the side of the map that was not armed, what should you do as Attackers if the Defenders are alive and halt you at the bridge, what should you do as Defenders if you do stall the Attackers at the bridge, how Attackers/Defender should prepare for Transition Mode during the 20 seconds the bomb is ticking, etc.



So ktkenshin, in a short answer to: "I am saying that this is a misleading rule because the defenders, if they are good, will ALWAYS halt a transition." I will state that if both teams are doing as they should and are splitting up down both corridors, no good team will allow another team to Transition past the bridge without any interruption.

But until Defending teams prepare for Transition Mode by sending players down both corridors, Transitions will have a considerable percentage of being successful by Attackers. This is because Attacking teams do send people down both corridors because they realize even if they die it will be an advantage to them since they will spawn further ahead in the map.

So yes, if the 'accepted strategy' by all Rated teams changes from sending Defenders down the -safe side- to sending Defenders down both sides, Transition Mode will be hard to implement in RATEDs.

Thanks for bringing up some valid points for RATEDs!

Monterone's Avatar


Monterone
02.20.2013 , 04:13 PM | #29
The doors are 20 seconds, for every warzone that has force field doors.

Each corner represents 5 seconds and will blink 5 times.
Sominette . Saminette
Wrath of Xedrix

Polymerize's Avatar


Polymerize
02.21.2013 , 01:12 AM | #30
Bump.

And I'm not so sure about the door being 20 seconds. I'll test it out tmrw.