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I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

mecher's Avatar


mecher
02.19.2013 , 11:32 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear View Post
Look through this very thread and you will see countless people asking for a PROVEN failed design (the complete sandbox that was SWG/UO).
Stopped reading your post the moment I saw this drivel.

Really SWG design is a "PROVEN" failure?

See I have the advantage of actually having played the game before the CU and NGE hit. So I know the real reason a lot of players kept on leaving was because of the WoWifying of the game and the bugs they never bothered to fix. SWG players, being a game where you have to talk to other people, were nearly all saying the same thing.

One such bug is the spawning in Tuskens in Fort Tusken. Had they bothered to fix bugs like that and made more content that players can do, as in Geo cave, Death Watch bunker, Corvette, etc. The game would still be around today.

Unless you want to deny that EVE Online exists?

You know the game that is 10 years old and yet has a higher sub count then ever before? Not even WoW can claim that as it's sub numbers are now dropping.

DarkIntelligence's Avatar


DarkIntelligence
02.20.2013 , 12:51 AM | #122
Ahhh... The good old days. WoW was my first (oh that sounds kinky) and it was just like everyone explained it. I agree that there is the factor of, once you do something for the first time you can never do it again for the first time, but SW:TOR actually rekindled that for me. Unfortunately, it only lasted through Korriban and DK (and any time I had to go back to those two while leveling). Balmorra, Hoth, and Alderran had a wow factor too brought about by the stunning landscapes, but unfortunately everything else was lackluster, and with the nonexistent endgame...well it's game over. I still haven't given up hope that the new xpack might bring back some of this, but it is a slim hope.
The Dark Side of the Force is my only master, the search for power, my only quest.
___________________________________________ _______________________________________

AshenK's Avatar


AshenK
02.20.2013 , 02:29 AM | #123
If BioWare was smart they would have made TOR just like SWG in the Pre-CU. They didn't. And now the game is losing subs faster then ever. Really everyone I've seen WANTS a game like the Pre-CU back. Go onto any game and go into the general chat and just ask about SWG and you'll have that whole chat talking about how great SWG was.

32+ Professions that could be mixed and matched, unlockable Jedi, players having to work with one another rather then go off and solo. PvP that was so much better then what we have today. TOR is just a very poor game, SWG was an experience.

Kalfear's Avatar


Kalfear
02.20.2013 , 02:42 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by AshenK View Post
If BioWare was smart they would have made TOR just like SWG in the Pre-CU. They didn't. And now the game is losing subs faster then ever. Really everyone I've seen WANTS a game like the Pre-CU back. Go onto any game and go into the general chat and just ask about SWG and you'll have that whole chat talking about how great SWG was.

32+ Professions that could be mixed and matched, unlockable Jedi, players having to work with one another rather then go off and solo. PvP that was so much better then what we have today. TOR is just a very poor game, SWG was an experience.
So false

SWG (all 30k of them remaining at end) Want pre CU back

Truth is SWG lost subs just as fast as TOR does
The two games run very simular sub loss patterns and time lines actually

The good news for you is you get that game from all reports in Arch Age and guess we find out a year after its release how popular your Sandbox really is (If all the failed sandbox designs thus far havent convinced you)

Im not saying SW:TOR great btw.
Its not and im about done with game.
This event pushed me over the limit of my patience in waiting for things to get done right

But there IS a reason SWG did so many game change designs and it WASNT just to be like WOW (as the vocal few like to claim)
They had mass sub loss issues from the get go as well and were trying to patch the leaky ship
All these now rose colored glasses reviews you read here do NOT accurately describe the truth of SWG and the plethora of issues the game encountered and the constantly shrinking subscription pool of players.

TOR right now has ALLOT MORE subs then SWG had after its first year (But TOR drawing from a much bigger pool so thats not really the compliment it sounds like)

Fact is were still waiting for the Star wars MMORPG that captures STAR WARS FRANCHISE

TOR is WOW with a Star Wars shell
SWG was UO with a Star Wars shell
now if only a developer would make STAR WARS with a Star Wars shell

LOL, if SWG was even as remotely popular and profitable as you all claim
It would still be open and running and Lucas Arts would have scoffed at idea of closing it to make room for TOR
Housing brought me back
now add Paazaak, KotOR#1 swoop bike racing, and more flashpoints and planets

kijthae's Avatar


kijthae
02.20.2013 , 05:00 AM | #125
I would never play swtor if i have read forums before I buy it. I played it on beta to try it then I bought it.
Internet is full of comments which dont even have scrap of logic.
These comments were written by people hired by companies to start a flame then you see people just copy paste them and spread them without thinking on it.
One of them ( and the most hilarious and common one of them ) is "swtor is a wow."
This is simply like saying "mercedes is a bmw" or saying "Call of Duty is a Doom clone"
Swtor and wow is same genre ( mmo-RPG ) . There were games just like wow before wow released and yes some of them were MMO-RPG.
Being same genre doesnt make them equal.
Swtor has totaly different class , level design , totaly different environment , story. Different approaches on leveling , pvp , pve ... If you cant realize them - just forget the small details which makes the swtor wonderful - you dont really have an idea about RPG genre.

Swtor makes me wonderous.
It has beatiful environment design , small details. It makes me wonderous from npcs that having conversation instead of npcs standing still like a log to feeling of exploring a datacrone.

bjbm's Avatar


bjbm
02.20.2013 , 05:04 AM | #126
EQ was pretty amazing. It was wonderous. Exploration, experience, death, and loot...all meant something.

Games (and players) nowadays wants everything and they want it now...with little to no effort. Its the "me me me" generation. Thats why this game, and many others this gen, rain epics from the sky.

Swtor is really nothing like a giant room with portals to other rooms. Zero exploration. Zero penalties for anything.

Maybe I'm just jaded like u OP.

MariaD's Avatar


MariaD
02.20.2013 , 05:31 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by CosmicKat View Post
Gaming is pretty niche to begin with, and MMO's are one of the smallest sub-categories of the industry.
This is not true anymore. The majority of people in the Western world play computer games. It's just that they are now much older than we were "back in the day" - the average age of a gamer now is 36 and climbing. And they are much, much, MUCH more casual on the average. Not even "Hello Kitty Island Adventure" casual, more like "Words with friends" casual.

So companies are going after people like that. "Your mom" - literally.
Quicker
Easier
More seductive


Malkavier's Avatar


Malkavier
02.20.2013 , 06:01 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by ConradLionhart View Post
I once felt like you do, but for WoW because WoW was my first MMO.

Yes I think it was because we were new and noobs that made it a great experience. We didn't know what to expect, we just accepted this MMO world for what it is. And it was this magical place that kept wowing you.

And no, I don't think we can ever go back to those days, because back then we were like children experiencing new things.
Now, we are grown up adults living in the adult world with consequences. We cannot see MMOs with a child's eyes anymore.

However, I am amazed that so far, no company can make an MMO that wows us like how it wowed us the first time.

Just because I was wowed by Baldur's Gate 2, doesn't mean I will never be wowed by another RPG.
I have recently been wowed by games like Assassin's Creed, Dead Space, Crusader Kings, even Faster Than Light.

Why is there no new MMO that can wow me the way other games have in other genres? Why is the MMO market so stagnant?
The MMO market seems stagnate because instead of innovating, game developers have turned to Asian-inspired grind gimmickfests designed to make you spend as much time as possible paying the game company money while providing negligible rewards. Much of the content is now geared towards Lowest Common Denominator players (read - those who are easily parted with their money, and are too lazy to put any effort into playing anything) and infused with Cash Shop money grabs.

That being said, I have no opposition to Cash Shops per se, but I do object to Pay 2 Win and locking people out of non-expansion content just to make more money. Cosmetic armors, etc in shops are fine by me. Pets, etc in the shops are all fine by me.

Another reason is because instead of designers with imagination (grew up on D&D, etc) and an art degree, we get designers who graduated with an MBA (and who's imagination goes no further than how big their bonus will be) who work for publishers with only the quarterly report in mind. Then there's design by committee and design by micro-management, which are failing strategies in any business, let alone when it comes to MMOs or other games, and from what I've seen and read elsewhere are becoming more common as the more nimble game companies get swallowed up by the behemoths like EA and Activision.
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"Your fear angers me. My anger feeds my hate. My hate gives me strength."

Avorniel's Avatar


Avorniel
02.20.2013 , 06:14 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBBP View Post
Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?
I spent 8 years playing Everquest 2, same thought's like you and I would love those's type of mmo's to come back,but then EQ,EQ2,WoW have all been out for over 8-9 years and EQ is what 14 years old this year ? they all have built up there foundations over that time and current ones today don't get that chance they have to hit the floor running and trip up now and then.
For me i have been looking for last few years for a EQ2 replacement and TBH still not found one ,but I don't think I ever will, so will have to make do with what there is so I play SWTOR get bored after a period of time then swap to another MMO (GW2,TSW,LOTRO) then come back to SWTOR rinse & repeat every 6 months or so,all this is mainly down to lack of content and very long play times I do each day.

But I have to say I enjoy SWTOR a lot even with all the bugs and foul mouthed youngsters in Gen chat
I sense a great disturbance in the Force... it's as if a million hamsters suddenly cried out in terror... and suddenly fell silent. Ref:- Raji_Lev

anstalt's Avatar


anstalt
02.20.2013 , 06:50 AM | #130
My personal RPG gaming experiences are built upon the following pillars:

1) Combat Fun

No matter what game it is, I have to have fun killing stuff. This can be achieved through interesting animations, epic enemies, combos, group work, whatever. Considering the majority of my time in MMOs is spent in combat, this must be fun.

2) Sense of Achievement

I need to feel like I am taking on a challenge and beating it, because beating something I consider challenging makes me feel good. Again, this can come in many, many forms for different players. In most games, for me, this takes the form of beating hard bosses or beating hundreds of smaller mobs at once. In other games, this achievement has come from exploration, completion of deeds, acquisition of gear etc.

3) Completion of the Meta Game

Virtually all RPGs follow the same principles of combat: hit a button, perform a skill that does damage, eventually kill the enemy. The meta game is what I consider to be the specific mechanics that underpin the combat, from stat allocation, skill points, talents to gear, skills etc. Every game has a meta game and generally, for me, understanding the meta game and using it to my advantage is both fun and rewarding.

4) Constant Character Improvement

This can come from levels, gear acquisition, skill points, deed completion or whatever. I love "getting better" and it is something that drives me to continue playing RPGs long after I should have put the controller down! It fosters attachment to your character which again increases enjoyment of the game.

5) Enjoyment of the World

A well built world to explore is another key part of my RPG experience. Finding those hidden gems, those extra dungeons, that boss monster with no quest attached....a good game world is the setting for every single thing you do in game so it needs to be done right!



The reason I believe many modern MMOs fail to "wow" us any more is because our sense of achievement has been massively diminished and our enjoyment of the meta game has been destroyed by plagurism. Too many modern MMOs have "copied" the WoW formula. As a result, the learning curve is very short and easy which reduces our sense of achievement as a veteran MMO player. That, for me, leaves the combat, character advancement and the world as the main things left to enjoy, however in TOR specifically the character advancement is mostly pointless and the world is not well designed.

For example, I am currently playing Sacred 2 with my brother on the 360. The meta game is ridiculous, there is soooo much to think about when building your character that is has been enjoyable and extremely satisfying working out the meta game. Your character can reach level 200 so you are constantly leveling up which keeps you craving for more. There is also a ridiculous amount of loot so we literally leave no stone unturned because we might randomly find "the next weapon".

That no longer happens in MMOs because you know that by completing quests, you'll get rewards which are enough to level you up to max level. I have never once felt the need to loot a chest in TOR because i know it'll be mostly junk or just something equivalent to what i already have.



The solution, for new MMOs, is to be original. This means taking a risk which is why not too many people are doing it, but if well thought out then it will pay off. Give people a new meta game to learn, new mechanics to learn, new worlds to explore and make them feel good for doing it. You cannot give someone a sense of achievement if you dont make something hard for someone to achieve! To achieve the "wow" effect, you need to actually "wow" them and that is not possible when plagurising other people's games.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!