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Someone has to take your spot when you leave

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Someone has to take your spot when you leave

WickedImage's Avatar


WickedImage
02.19.2013 , 08:05 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Maraxuss View Post
When they institute 30 - 45 min debuff, i'll wish you the best of luck as you stand on fleet twiddling thumbs in gen chat too. We all win.
This will never happen. Stop kidding yourself.
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foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
02.19.2013 , 09:42 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
But what I will say is this (even if it's a bit utilitarian without paying enough respect to other theories): The person who fills in for you is probably being harmed less than the person who sticks around. The guy who backlogs for you? He shrugs, maybe cusses "**** a losing WZ!", and then just leaves the game; because he joined the game late anyway, he feels no agency in its loss and no investment in its outcome. So he will just requeue having wasted very little time and experiencing very little frustration. Or maybe he loves the uphill fight so he stays around to play it out! In that case, you did him a favor.

For you, however, by remaining in the WZ and wasting your own time on a thoroughly unenjoyable activity, you incur a big hit to your own happiness. Your own loss of happiness, not to mention 10 minutes of your time, is comparatively much larger than the minor frustration and wasted 60 seconds experienced by the backlogger.

It's not the ONLY way to view the ethical problem, but it is definitely one way to do so.
I think your position on the matter is more narcissistic than utilitarian, but I absolutely love that you brought I. Kant take-it-anymore into a swtor pvp debate. so cheers!
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LogicalPremise's Avatar


LogicalPremise
02.19.2013 , 11:51 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Sadishist View Post
Remember this, when you leave early because you don't want to waste your time, remember that every time you do someone who is waiting next in the queue has to waste their time taking your spot. Think about this next time you leave a warzone early.
Get in a premade.
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Sadishist's Avatar


Sadishist
02.20.2013 , 12:00 AM | #14
Most of the posts in this thread are very selfish, and disgusting.

In response to-

Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
But what I will say is this (even if it's a bit utilitarian without paying enough respect to other theories): The person who fills in for you is probably being harmed less than the person who sticks around. The guy who backlogs for you? He shrugs, maybe cusses "**** a losing WZ!", and then just leaves the game; because he joined the game late anyway, he feels no agency in its loss and no investment in its outcome. So he will just requeue having wasted very little time and experiencing very little frustration.
You also have to take in consideration that the next guy who joins waste a minute of his time in the queue quitting, keep in mind that if 10 more people do the exact same by joining and quiting after him in the same match, that's wasting 1 minute of 10 peoples time. Just to keep in mind.

Carter_Mathis's Avatar


Carter_Mathis
02.20.2013 , 12:11 AM | #15
People who are willing to leave wz's early are often solo queued and are looking for the best way to have a good time in tor, so they don't particularly care about the effect that it has on another person. That's also why so many pugs are dps, it's just more fun to kill (even if they are horrid at it ) than to kite while keeping other people alive. I don't particularly care about people saying that they're going to leave warzones because it's to better their own experience because there isn't really an argument that can be made that their overall experience will be worsened by them leaving. What I do dislike is that they will gladly say that they are leaving a wz because their team is too bad, but they never mention that they are going to requeue in the hopes of finding a team that will carry them.

DarkSaberMaster's Avatar


DarkSaberMaster
02.20.2013 , 12:21 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Maraxuss View Post
When they institute 30 - 45 min debuff, i'll wish you the best of luck as you stand on fleet twiddling thumbs in gen chat too. We all win.
Yeah. You keep thinking that. And if hell freezes over and they do institute that, don't come to the forums crying about people camping at the node getting defense medals, not contributing to the fight because they can't leave the WZ.
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Joesixxpack's Avatar


Joesixxpack
02.20.2013 , 12:30 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Sadishist View Post
Most of the posts in this thread are very selfish, and disgusting.
Common sense says that it's more disgusting to expect team players to waste their valuable time with players that don't consider themselves part of a team.

Zataos's Avatar


Zataos
02.20.2013 , 12:35 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Maraxuss View Post
When they institute 30 - 45 min debuff, i'll wish you the best of luck as you stand on fleet twiddling thumbs in gen chat too. We all win.
haha, keep dreaming, they wouldn't even add a 1 min debuff, and you think your getting a 45 min one?

The quitting is a symptom, not the problem, the problem is unbalanced teams, most people don't need to be steam rolling to not quit of of a warzone, just feel that they have a chance in hell to win. Installing a matchmaker is the only solution to reduce quitting.
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ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.20.2013 , 12:39 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Sadishist View Post
You also have to take in consideration that the next guy who joins waste a minute of his time in the queue quitting, keep in mind that if 10 more people do the exact same by joining and quiting after him in the same match, that's wasting 1 minute of 10 peoples time. Just to keep in mind.
In the worst assessment, that means we would have equal positive and negative utility. The leaver saved himself from 10 minutes of frustration, but at the cost of 10 other players wasting 1 minute each.

1 player * 10 minutes of annoyance = 10 units of annoyance
10 players * 1 minute of annoyance = 10 units of annoyance

But we still might be able to get a positive utility calculation! This depends on how annoyed/frustrated the first leaver would have been by staying those 10 extra minutes, and how annoyed/frustrated each subsequent newcomer is by wasting their minute of time.

Wasted time annoyance might be cumulative, such that in the first minute he experiences 1 unit of annoyance, then 1.5 in the second minute, 2 in the third, and so on until the end. Maybe the progression isn't linear, but you get the idea. Under that model, the newcomers would only derive 1 unit of annoyance for that first wasted minute. This tips the scale back towards the first leaver.

10 minutes of annoyance = (1 + 1.5 + 2 + 2.5 ... + 5.5) units of annoyance = 32.5 units of annoyance
10 players * 1 minute of annoyance = 10 units of annoyance

At least from the perspective of 1 Leaver vs. 10 Newcomers, the balance is probably on the side of the leaver.

We can still make it trickier by taking into account the players that did NOT choose to leave. And the question remains, how much disutility do we cause them by leaving? It turns out that answer is a tough one. Some of them might just say "good riddance" with you gone, generating no additional disutility. Others might be genuinely annoyed at leavers for moral reasons, which would add some unhappiness to the balance. Still others might be frustrated, but no more frustrated than if you had stayed and played to a blowout loss. I suspect that the annoyance that they feel at losing isn't much less or more than the annoyance they feel by an early leaver, but it's up for argument. (Of course,there is also the enemy team to consider, but there is something nonsensical about considering their utility; we are going to just leave it out).

So adding additional players into the equation complicates the matter (but it's still an interesting line of inquiry). We are still left with no clear cut answer.

I agree that it is a very interesting topic that is worth discussing. My suspicion is that there MIGHT BE some ethical answer that gives a very reasonable argument as to why we shouldn't leave WZs. And we might be able to find it! At least from a strict utility calculus, however, it is a very tricky problem that probably doesn't produce a compelling argument to stay in losing pug WZs.
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klham's Avatar


klham
02.20.2013 , 01:03 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by WickedImage View Post
If you're smart, you only waste a minute.....literally. Just quit when you see that you're backfilling. simple solution.
Now, lets focus on the actual problems not the symptoms of those problems, shall we?
Instead of asking for folks to not quit...maybe ask the devs for a /resign feature? Just sayin'........
A /resign voting system might be the answer...or it might open a whole other can of worms. Not sure how much is incumbent on BW to rectify player behaviour here, beyond applying a minor disincentive. I'd rather players quit than go afk.