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"grd plz"


JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
02.17.2013 , 06:18 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
"When they're not", that is basically a situation where nobody is doing any damage on those mobs that are outside the range of the aoe. Then healing is the only thing generating threat.
That is not healer pulling off. That is healer being the only one generating threat on those mobs.
I'll concede the point about the Guard Drouk, I hadn't considered the aggro reset.

But this is my point - with mob groups like that (of which there are many), the tank will have to split his attention between the ones in AOE range and the ones who are not. This is easy for a Powertech or Vanguard. I don't know about Assassins/Shadows. It's not so easy for a Juggernaut/Guardian. A good tank *will* be throwing attacks and taunts at those outside his normal range, but there's a limit to what can be done and splitting the focus like that decreases the amount of threat the tank has on those mobs.

With decreased threat, it's more likely that the healer will pull off. There's a difference between a Jug tank hitting a whole group with Smash + Crushing Blow + Sweeping Slash and a Jug tank having to bounce back and forth between doing that and running over to the other mob to choke him, running back, throwing the saber... etc. The healer, meanwhile, is generating the same amount of threat on all of them, and can easily pull off whichever one the tank has the least threat on.

In an optimal group where everybody knows what they're doing, nobody will pull off for long enough for it to matter (DPS might pull off, but probably only a second or two before they kill their target and will take minimal damage). Rarely is the situation optimal, and people make mistakes. The Guard is insurance for this, and that insurance is most important on the healer - if things go out of hand and people start dying, would you rather lose the DPS or the healer?

You're all talking like it can NEVER happen. People aren't perfect, stuff happens, and it's best to do what you can to minimize it.

Besides, on most trash pulls the DPS aren't starting on the tank's main focus anyways. They're attacking healers, weaks, normals, strongs, then elites and champs - and the guard's not going to make a difference THERE, either, as the DPS will still pull the weaker mob. By the time they get to the guy the tank has been building aggro on, he's so far ahead they won't pull off.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.17.2013 , 08:38 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by JimmyTheCannon View Post
You keep saying that, and yet I pull aggro - and don't tell me I'm overhealing, because I'm not.

I'd like to see definitive proof that healing threat is 50% base before being divided among all mobs. I've also seen people disagree on whether it's actually divided among all mobs or not. ::shrugs::

The guard makes a difference. I've SEEN it make a difference.
The 50% base with the 15% skilled reduction can easily be seen by looking at combat logs. Just check out any raid on torparse.

Nobody is trying to say that guard will have no effect. It just has a minimal effect on healing threat, as it is so low already. Frankly on trash pulls you can guard the healer, guard the dps or guard NOBODY and any decent group will get through it. It's just not as important as kill order, CCs and correct use of taunts. If a group is having trouble and thinks that guarding the healer will solve something, that's the problem.

Study the combat logs. If you have a raid where you (as the healer) pulled, you can upload your log to torparse and check it out.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
02.18.2013 , 03:07 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by RendValor View Post
A.- Shadows/Assassins aren't the only tanks and B.- it's not a matter of "needing" DPS gear, it's a matter of optimizing stats in situations where extra endurance will do you no good.
As a Shadow tank, I have yet to find a situation where extra endurance/health does me no good. Since I'm not in the business of losing aggro, it helps to provide the healer with a bit more leeway.


On the guard topic: I always have it on the DPS except in the situations, operations boss fights, where it's useless to guard DPS so it gets cast on the healer. I always ask for guard when I'm on my sentinel. Bad pug healers will whine, bad pug tanks will guard the healer. When I do get guard, however, I go ******* crazy and try to steal aggro off the tank just for the fun of it. I do announce that beforehand and people respond nicely so we enter a contest of sorts. They do their best to keep aggro, I do my best do steal it. Keeps the flashpoint a bit more interesting.

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
02.18.2013 , 03:14 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
When I dps I am offended when I'm guarded. Makes me think I don't know my class or role.
So a PT doesn't know his role when he pulls aggro?

Thanks to bw one of the top burst dps classes doesn't have an aggro reduce.
If the two dps are equally geared, I will guard the PT because of that fact.

Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
As a Shadow tank, I have yet to find a situation where extra endurance/health does me no good. Since I'm not in the business of losing aggro, it helps to provide the healer with a bit more leeway.
When the extra health goes on cost of shield/absorb/defense (before you hit the wished caps, I don't know what they are for the assa/shadow) then it's doesn't help the healer.
T3-M4 - Lvl 55 Chars:
T'hana Jugg, Saleona Sniper, S'inthoras Mara,Hannahla Merc, Eleondra&Eleondraa Ops,
Leeonira Sorc, CaphalÝr Sorc, Kindarya Assa, LeoniŽ PT,
Revuna Mando, Leojuna Scoundrel, Simon'e Shadow, Sileona Guardian

Hovergame's Avatar


Hovergame
02.18.2013 , 04:17 AM | #65
[Except any competent tank will use DPS armorings/hilt/barrel and power crystals.

A.- Shadows/Assassins aren't the only tanks and B.- it's not a matter of "needing" DPS gear, it's a matter of optimizing stats in situations where extra endurance will do you no good. ]

Those are your words, you said ANY competent tank, Shadow is one of those.

Quote:
When the extra health goes on cost of shield/absorb/defense (before you hit the wished caps, I don't know what they are for the assa/shadow) then it's doesn't help the healer.
He was talking about using DPS armoring/hilt/barrel and power crystal on a tank. A competent tank doesn't need any DPS gear, and I used the shadow as an example. About the "caps", they are just urban legend for the tanks. The point of gearing a tank is finding a good compromise between the different bosses but, most of the time, gearing for the hardest boss.

Every single boss is different in term of mitigation, and they all have a different BiS stats. Defense, Shield and Absorption are useless against Kephess the Undying but you need them against The Terror From Beyond.

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
02.18.2013 , 04:58 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Hovergame View Post
He was talking about using DPS armoring/hilt/barrel and power crystal on a tank. A competent tank doesn't need any DPS gear, and I used the shadow as an example.
You said you didn't know a situation where it applies, I gave you one.

A competent jugg tank doesn't need dps gear but more dmg does make it easier to hold aggro (I hope you agree with me, that aoe tanking and aggro building don't belong to the strengths of the jugg-tank)
T3-M4 - Lvl 55 Chars:
T'hana Jugg, Saleona Sniper, S'inthoras Mara,Hannahla Merc, Eleondra&Eleondraa Ops,
Leeonira Sorc, CaphalÝr Sorc, Kindarya Assa, LeoniŽ PT,
Revuna Mando, Leojuna Scoundrel, Simon'e Shadow, Sileona Guardian

slafko's Avatar


slafko
02.18.2013 , 05:28 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Never_Hesitate View Post
When the extra health goes on cost of shield/absorb/defense (before you hit the wished caps, I don't know what they are for the assa/shadow) then it's doesn't help the healer.
When and if.

They don't. Not on my tank at least.

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
02.18.2013 , 05:34 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
When and if.

They don't. Not on my tank at least.
Advanced Immunity Enhancement 27

Advanced Bastion Enhancement 27

Advanced Steadfast Enhancement 27
T3-M4 - Lvl 55 Chars:
T'hana Jugg, Saleona Sniper, S'inthoras Mara,Hannahla Merc, Eleondra&Eleondraa Ops,
Leeonira Sorc, CaphalÝr Sorc, Kindarya Assa, LeoniŽ PT,
Revuna Mando, Leojuna Scoundrel, Simon'e Shadow, Sileona Guardian

slafko's Avatar


slafko
02.18.2013 , 06:25 AM | #69

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
02.18.2013 , 06:35 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
These enhancements have different stats, so if you use the Steadfast you get more endurence but less defense than you would if you were using the Immunity.

So you can sometimes get extra hp but lose a bit of the other stats, which can be negative in some situations.
T3-M4 - Lvl 55 Chars:
T'hana Jugg, Saleona Sniper, S'inthoras Mara,Hannahla Merc, Eleondra&Eleondraa Ops,
Leeonira Sorc, CaphalÝr Sorc, Kindarya Assa, LeoniŽ PT,
Revuna Mando, Leojuna Scoundrel, Simon'e Shadow, Sileona Guardian