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The "Other" pay to win


JacksonMo's Avatar


JacksonMo
02.11.2013 , 09:47 PM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by AshlaBoga View Post
The problem with gear no longer being learnable is that BW tends to itemize their gear poorly.

Example: Patron armoring. Is there even a companion tank with cunning as a mainstat? Because there's no tank AC with a cunning mainstat.

What were they thinking with Patron mods? What was the point?

So basically, I'd be less worried if I trusted BW to itemize gear well.
Well, the HK droid uses cunning, and he's... DPS... nevermind.
Seems like there was another companion that can use cunning or aim.
I suppose if you're pushing the cap, you could switch to add endurance when more cunning would be of marginal benefit.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.11.2013 , 09:55 PM | #82
@JacksonMo, I get where you're coming from on this.

I don't know if I'm unusual, but I actually enjoyed the gear progression. When I only had a couple pieces of Columi, SM EV was hard for me. I had to get better at my class and learn how to coordinate with others in the group.

The same thing happened when I first started SM EC. I was Rakata/Columi and it was a significant step up in difficulty. I really had to pay attention to what was going on, move when I should, stay when I shouldn't, switch when I needed to, etc. etc.

So effectively, as I became a better player, it "unlocked" the higher levels of content I could complete, which allowed me to get better gear. I suppose this sort of experience isn't for everyone, but I really enjoyed it.

On the flipside, imagine running SM EV for the first time in Dread Guard? Any halfway decent player would find no challenge while vastly overgearing it. Anyone finding it difficult in that gear would likely be so clueless at their class it would be painful.

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
02.11.2013 , 11:39 PM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
Well, the HK droid uses cunning, and he's... DPS... nevermind.
Seems like there was another companion that can use cunning or aim.
I suppose if you're pushing the cap, you could switch to add endurance when more cunning would be of marginal benefit.
The simple fact of the matter is that most of the raiders like REing because of how poorly gear is itemized. If they itemize everything to be BiS without swapping mods I'm all for making it impossible to learn, but ONLY if they do that.
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JacksonMo's Avatar


JacksonMo
02.11.2013 , 11:50 PM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
@JacksonMo, I get where you're coming from on this.

I don't know if I'm unusual, but I actually enjoyed the gear progression. When I only had a couple pieces of Columi, SM EV was hard for me. I had to get better at my class and learn how to coordinate with others in the group.

The same thing happened when I first started SM EC. I was Rakata/Columi and it was a significant step up in difficulty. I really had to pay attention to what was going on, move when I should, stay when I shouldn't, switch when I needed to, etc. etc.

So effectively, as I became a better player, it "unlocked" the higher levels of content I could complete, which allowed me to get better gear. I suppose this sort of experience isn't for everyone, but I really enjoyed it.

On the flipside, imagine running SM EV for the first time in Dread Guard? Any halfway decent player would find no challenge while vastly overgearing it. Anyone finding it difficult in that gear would likely be so clueless at their class it would be painful.
Reminds me of my first few EV runs. We didn't bother with story mode. The rest of the group was (mostly) geared already, and at the time, I was the only smuggler. So for several runs, I would do my best until I died. On one occasion I remember dieing just as I got one last heal on the tank to down the droid boss.
Each week got better. Then they wanted to do EC, and the progression started all over in story mode. Only I was swapping toons based on who showed up. Healer/tank/rdps/mdps. Jack of all trades, master of none.
But now we've progressed to TFB hardmode and the twilek gunslinger modeled after Vette has evolved into my raiding toon. No more swapping. And my Skill as a DPS begins to fine-tune the way I learned to heal in EV. Learn the dance until you can do it with your eyes shut.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.11.2013 , 11:56 PM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by AshlaBoga View Post
The simple fact of the matter is that most of the raiders like REing because of how poorly gear is itemized. If they itemize everything to be BiS without swapping mods I'm all for making it impossible to learn, but ONLY if they do that.
It's not as if the only options are "nothing can be REd for schemas" and "everything can be REd for schemas". Back in ye olden days, when KP and EV were the only thing around, you could craft the mods and enhs assuming you got lucky and the actual legit schema dropped. The items themselves could be made, but the only people that *could* make them were raiders and the only way to get the mats (for the good stuff) was by *actually raiding* (and most guilds had Alien Data Cubes coming out of a number of orifices and still do). The only problem was that the schematics were, honestly, *way* too rare. Fix that problem (by either giving the last bosses or two a guaranteed BoP enh or mod schema and the final boss a chance a random armoring/hilt schema or all bosses growing chance at dropping one of the schemas), and I doubt anyone would have any issue. You can have both exclusivity *and* crafting gear, and it's not even all that hard.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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MSpectre's Avatar


MSpectre
02.12.2013 , 02:42 AM | #86
I've heard the same outcry before with some of my own guild mates but when we down a boss and I end up passing on gear they need I never hear an 'oh sweet one less person to worry about rolling against me, lucky me'.

You should be thankful, I spent multiple millions(it wasn't easy) to help down that boss and help others score loot.

Some people love carrots more than others I suppose, especially golden ones.

Mugen_no_Jidai's Avatar


Mugen_no_Jidai
02.13.2013 , 05:10 PM | #87
I think that the current system is working just fine as it is. Numerous individuals have already brought up the stock itemization problem and honestly if we couldn't learn schematics from mods on the GTN, the market would never stabilize and the lucky few designated guild crafters/fortunate REers would be able to continually charge astronomical prices for their wares. As it stands now, both casual and hardcore raiders can purchase mods at reasonable prices dictated by your server's stabilizer market, and crafters can still make their millions. Moreover, while I've gotten about 5 pairs of DG boots from TFB and tons of other stuff from all the other bosses, I've still never ever seen a chestpiece drop from TFB itself, no matter how many times I've run it. I remember the days before we could craft anything and you could wait through months of EV and KP runs for that last piece of columi/rakata to drop to complete your set. Now if that one piece doesn't drop, I can just craft it.

The other reason this is working just fine is simply because of alts. I can think of one person that I regularly raid with who doesn't have more than one 50, while most have three or more. I want to be able to use my alt for anything once I hit 50, so it's nice to be able to ding and then step into HM TFB or NiM EC capable gear from the start. If my guild needs a new toon to fulfill a particular role out of our existing raid group, why have to wait to grind out another set of gear? Similarly, if I'm trying to pug on the faction side that's not my own for ops that actually interest me, it doesn't hurt to have the best gear that I can to ensure that I actually get to raid there once in a while.

I also personally enjoy being self sufficient as far as gear is concerned. With the exception of some relics, implants, and a few tanking mods, I can pretty much craft whatever I want for any new toon.

Ruskaeth's Avatar


Ruskaeth
02.15.2013 , 05:04 AM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
I find this rather funny in a gear-based game such as this one.
Just FYI, I never said an opinion about crafting. I've had a set crafted for an alt, or two and looted roughly 1.5 sets of 63 gear. And yes, skill > gear: I've seen people in BH gear and better not been able to DPS EV's first boss on HM. Which should be doable with some tionese and some columi. Thus, skill > gear. I've seen people tanking EC HM with recruit MK-2 gear and also seen people fail it with 61 gear. All in all, I find your ignorant comment rather funny.

DataBeaver's Avatar


DataBeaver
02.15.2013 , 05:23 AM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
On the flipside, imagine running SM EV for the first time in Dread Guard? Any halfway decent player would find no challenge while vastly overgearing it. Anyone finding it difficult in that gear would likely be so clueless at their class it would be painful.
Not even full DG gear will keep them alive at Soa if they stay in the middle when the floor falls down, or go the wrong way on the platforms, or lag behind the group and miss the heals. And if the clueless player is a healer, they'll likely doom the entire group by healing improperly or not at all during the descent.

Astoncam's Avatar


Astoncam
02.15.2013 , 05:48 AM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by DataBeaver View Post
Not even full DG gear will keep them alive at Soa if they stay in the middle when the floor falls down, or go the wrong way on the platforms, or lag behind the group and miss the heals. And if the clueless player is a healer, they'll likely doom the entire group by healing improperly or not at all during the descent.
Exactly, but if this person have to gear himself with progression, they actually have to learn how to defeat SoA before got the best gear in the game.

In old times (not SWTOR) the people with the best gear killed all the bosses in progression and maybe that player was a cripple, but at least he was experienced because he did all content before the most difficult one.

Progression. Progression. The carrot on a stick (gear) is the reward but it's also the way to be a better player, not only the most-geared player. And I think this game totally lacks of progression. And that's why there are so many ppl with an awesome gear but with no idea about how to play.

Because, I'm an awesome Gunslinger, but I'm an horrible full campaing/dreadguard tank with my guardian alter because I never tank in a operation. And of course, the 1st time will be not Karaggas or EV. It will be TFB HM or EC NiM. Why do so many content if new ppl never have to play it? No sense. Progression is the solution.

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