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The "Other" pay to win


Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
02.07.2013 , 02:18 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The consistency of such behavior suggests either extreme competence (insofar as they don't want players to just get a piece of gear and have it be "teh bestest it can be!" right out of the box so they make it so that *nothing* is optimally itemized immediately) or extreme ignorance (i.e. they think they're making everything itemized perfectly right off the bat and just have no clue that, holy crap, Accuracy isn't useful for tanks *at all*). Which interpretation of the information you choose to follow depends upon your personal preference (and is probably a good Rorschach test for your overall opinion of Bioware as a whole).
I'd personally assume a mix of both, really. I seem to remember it being stated somewhere that they wanted to reward people who take the extra time to fine tune their gear or somesuch, which to a point I'd be ok with.

But then we have, as dps commandos for example, Dread Guard gear that is utter garbage in virtually every slot. Aim heavy mods. Endurance heavy enhancements. Endurance heavy barrels. Hundreds more crit rating than I'd ever, ever want. Most of it was actually worse than the previous tier of stuff, which is pretty bloody impressive considering how bad Black Hole gear off the vendor was too. I didn't so much have to fine tune that crap as I did near completely replace it all with crafted stuff. It's hard to believe they consciously made it that terrible as part of some bizarre strategy to reward dedication.

If it's a situation replicated in the next level of operations without the ability to craft actually-better-than-the-rubbish-my-gear-comes-with replacements, I can't imagine ever having the willpower to grind out two dozen various item tokens from drops to actually fix it in the first place, let alone against an entire guild of other people. That's pretty atrocious game design under any stretch of the imagination.

Doing this literally hurts everybody, raiders included, and for what?

Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
02.07.2013 , 08:12 AM | #72
They consistently put out poorly itemized gear intentionally... it's working as intended.

Not Broken ~ IS feature
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
02.08.2013 , 05:09 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
Not Broken ~ IS feature
The two aren't mutually exclusive, y'know.

You know what happened the last time they did the whole 'no crafting, terrible item drops, need to farm multiples of each to correct it' thing? People just wore Battlemaster gear, and biochem was the only useful profession. That's not indicative of a working feature.

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
02.08.2013 , 07:59 AM | #74
Coming from a game (SWG) where you got "endgame" gear in the form of a schematic, and then crafted them, it seems completely normal to me.

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
02.08.2013 , 08:29 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
The two aren't mutually exclusive, y'know.

You know what happened the last time they did the whole 'no crafting, terrible item drops, need to farm multiples of each to correct it' thing? People just wore Battlemaster gear, and biochem was the only useful profession. That's not indicative of a working feature.
I'm not worried about not making credits from crafting - mostly because I've failed to learn every DG mod I've RE'd

What worries me is the TERRIBLE way BW itemizes gear stats. I don't want to run Nightmare TFB 16+ times when it comes out in order to have properly itemized gear. That's just not fun.
Typhojem Legacy, Jung Ma server
VICIOUS
Lord of Corruption

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.08.2013 , 08:32 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by saatana View Post
Isn´t it fun when you actually have to do Ops to get the Ops gear
To me ops are the reason to get gear; I really don't see the reason to get gear if someone isn't doing ops. Of course I don’t care if they have it either, especially since some raider “should” have made the credits off them.

But no it isn't that much fun if:

1. all crewskill, but biochem is made null and void.
2. You get new gear and it is worthless because of any resemblance to optimization is thrown out the window.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t do operations to show off my gear, I do them because I enjoy doing them. I will go on anything any time and do any role with the guild. Even though all runs outside of my progress group are not going to net me any upgrades. I do however want when I am up and what should be an upgrade dropping, I want it to be an upgrade, even if I have to spend a few credits to make it so.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.08.2013 , 12:04 PM | #77
Would be kind of neat if the gear itself couldn't be crafted (but still RE'd for applicable mats) and schematics were boss drops from the Ops content. "BoE" schematics, so that the schematic itself could be sold. Doesn't fix the problem of selling on the GTN and having other people "steal" the schematics, but I'd like to hope BioWare is trying to address that problem in any case, because the current situation is *wrong*, even if it kind of works.

That would let the monopolizers try to rake in the credits, and would give other groups clearing the option of breaking up the monopoly if they choose to take it. It would also make getting schematics to the appropriate crafting alts easier.

There's not enough replay value in BW's current content to spam to the point that everyone is BIS with the current stock gear drops.

If they're going to keep the "you can finish this in 2 hours" stuff, they need to keep the current crappy stock gear and craftable mods to keep a balance between reason to raid and burnout prevention.

Much longer, less linear raids that drop 1 piece per slot per run and itemized right from the get-go would be a pretty amazing change but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe it's more "old school" or less "casual friendly", but I'd be all for such content. Even better if there are multiple paths leading to multiple upgrades (e.g. 4 or 5 mini-raids-within-a-raid, each with multiple bosses which each drop a particular slot's item, with main slot drops on the last boss of each mini-raid, culminating with the most valuable drops (main/offhand) from the final boss). Maybe too EQ/WoW/MMOofChoiceHere-like, but would be a nice balance between time investment, variety of content, and replay-without-burnout.

While I'm dreaming, can I get a pony, too?
Srs'bsns, Conquerer of the Dread Fortress
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"
<Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk

Nerdcommando's Avatar


Nerdcommando
02.08.2013 , 06:31 PM | #78
The true value to having a system where people can just buy the stats for gear (the skins still require a run) is that operations are solely for people who wish to do them. I dont have people dropping group after the boss that drops there peice didnt drop it. Instead my group is full of people who want to be there for the sake of being there.
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy. - Steven Wright

JacksonMo's Avatar


JacksonMo
02.11.2013 , 08:08 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Nerdcommando View Post
The true value to having a system where people can just buy the stats for gear (the skins still require a run) is that operations are solely for people who wish to do them. I dont have people dropping group after the boss that drops there peice didnt drop it. Instead my group is full of people who want to be there for the sake of being there.
I think this sums it up pretty well. Sorry, I know this thread is a few days old.
There were quite a few "I'm so awesome!" posts claiming that only those super-awesome like them should be able to obtain best-in-game gear. Or if its craftable at all, it should be set up in a way that makes 2 or 3 of said super-awesome players mega-multi-millionaires because they were the only person in their guild who rolled cybertech instead of biochem.
(if it was done the way people on this thread were demanding, you couldn't even fwd mods to an alt to learn)
This outlook is both elitist and short-sighted.
How many "hard-core" gamers were already bored and gone before 1.2 even rolled out?
Still more left either right before or right after 1.3.
These are the last people Bioware needs to take advice from!
The guys who started the guild I was in previously were exactly that sort. Yea they were the first on the server to beat EV and KP in nightmare mode, and the server first to beat Zorn and Toth in hard mode.
Whoopie Do!
Half of those guys had quit the game by the time 1.2 came out, which was about the time a buddy and I joined up.
Most of the rest quit shortly after server mergers.
Yes, it took plenty of skill to learn those fights when there were no guides to look at and no one to teach you the mechanics. I'm not denying that.
But the one time I talked to the guy who founded that guild in teamspeak, he was a total jerk!
The GM when I joined was considerably nicer, but still lacked the patience to teach game mechanics.
He and his wife quit shortly after mergers along with most of what was left of the once biggest and baddest guild on the server. Leaving two (count-em) TWO of the talented players, and me.

So for all those who complain that a "gear check" doesn't mean what it used to; on that much we agree.
When I see a fully optimized set of 63's I don't think "this is gonna be a cake walk, the big-boys are here"
I think "If we wipe because this clown forgets to taunt, he's gonna blame everyone but himself."

They didn't make these learnable to make 3 people per server multi-millionaires. They did it to make crafting viable, and even profitable. Super-awesome players just don't stick around. Catering to their damands (especially on something as mundane as crafting) is NOT a long term strategy for the game. Super-awesome need NEW content about every two weeks or they get bored and start whining in forums about people "schem-stealing" and cutting into their obscene profit margins. Or they quit the game all together and play something else which invariably gets boring in about a month or less. I know this to be true. Some of the guild members who left for other games came back and left again when the next game came out.
The way it's set up now, people who aren't members of <Super-Awesome> can have something to work towards.
I know I'll never be invited to join <Super-Awesome> and I'm ok with that.
I'd much rather seek out scruffy newbs who want to learn.
And I know from experience that scruffy newbs make better friends anyway.

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
02.11.2013 , 08:30 PM | #80
The problem with gear no longer being learnable is that BW tends to itemize their gear poorly.

Example: Patron armoring. Is there even a companion tank with cunning as a mainstat? Because there's no tank AC with a cunning mainstat.

What were they thinking with Patron mods? What was the point?

So basically, I'd be less worried if I trusted BW to itemize gear well.
Typhojem Legacy, Jung Ma server
VICIOUS
Lord of Corruption