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How to play as a dps sorc against assault/pyro?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
How to play as a dps sorc against assault/pyro?

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
02.11.2013 , 03:07 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Cretinus View Post
I'm on a DPS sorc and I simply die each time I fight one of these. Their burst is much higher than mine, I pop all my defensive + CC CDs, they even seem to be immune to loads of stuff and they tank my dmg away like nothing and then I'm dead. No time for healing, no time for nothing. I know I'm not the most skilled PvP player, but against other classes I'm always able to do something meaningful.
Can you sorcerers out there give me some advice? There must be some tactics against these bros!
If you're hybrid or madness, this is easy (assuming both bombs and a railshot don't go off before you notice him). You need stunbreak, force speed and one of electrocute, overload or whirlwind available (or bubble stun, if you're a hybrid). Force slow and, if you have it, creeping terror help. Key is to make it to 11 meters before taking too much damage and stay there or farther and bleed him with dots and burst him with instants. at 11m, he tickles.

He's only got one gap closer, grapple, which is on a long-ish cooldown. Force speed is to get out of that, after you stunbreak his stun (you'll be whitebarred). Once you're back to 11, keep gaining ground, keep bleeding him, keep using instants (strafecast all of this)...if you ever get around 20m, you can use force lightning as well, long as you never drop back to 10m.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.11.2013 , 03:32 PM | #52
I recently worked through this issue from a different perspective, the DPS Sorc vs. Scrapper/Operative point of view. As a Scrapper, I (And others) eventually figured out a pretty solid solution to fighting even against perfect DPS Sorcs, but that made use of a lot of CCs and abilities that Pyrotechs just don't have. I am pretty sure that if we apply the same DPS Sorc strategy to this fight that the PT have basically no chance of winning.

I will try and give the Pyrotech as many advantages as possible in this fight. We will assume all CDs are up on both sides. I will also assume that the DPS Sorc is speccd at a hybrid 0+/17+/17+ build with access to Bubble Stun, insta-Whirlwind, and Electric Bindings off of Overload. Madness Sorcs can also succeed, but it is slightly harder. I will time out the events using GCD timers:

EDIT: Removed a bad rebubble timer in the fight at 6 seconds. Good catch by Edonidd.

OUR GOAL: Stay past 11 meters
PT GOAL: Stay at melee range.

Pre-fight: Sorc has bubble on himself. PT somehow got to melee range without us paying attention.
0-1.5: PT fires Flame Burst to get a DOT going. Sorc fires Affliction.
1.5-3: PT fires Thermal Detonator. Sorc fires Death Field.
3-4.5: PT fires Rail Shot. Bubble pops and stuns. Sorc fires Shock as he sidesteps back (~8m)
4.5-6: PT still stunned. Sorc sidesteps more (~16m)
6-7.5: PT needs to reclose gap and Electro Dart stuns while moving forward (~8m). We break CC and fire Force Slow while sidestepping back (~25M).
7.5-9: PT now slowed and gap is widening. Fires Grapple bringing distance to 0M. We fire Overload and lock him in bindings as we sidestep back (~15m including overload knockback).
9-10.5. PT fires Unload . We pop Force Speed and take off (~35m including knockback).
10.5-12: PT wakes up and walks forward (~8m) firing Explosive Dart. We channel Crushing Darkness

The PT is now completely screwed. He has 2 DOTs ticking on him, no more grapple, and no more ranged stun. He is about 20 meters away from us and is about to be slowed by a channeled Force Lightning. The PT still has his CC break up, but we have both Electrocute and our insta-cast Whirlwind plus its 2 second stun at the end. If the PT ever somehow gets within 15 meters, we can just Overload and root him for 2-3 seconds while backing up. Or pop bubble when he is in our face. The only things he can do from afar are Rapid Shots, Unload, and Explosive Dart. We have another Force Slow in less than 6 seconds, Lightning, Affliction, Crushing Darkness, and Death Field. We also have have another bubble ready to use AND all of our healing abilities.

The fight is completely over.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

JasonChmiel's Avatar


JasonChmiel
02.11.2013 , 03:50 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
for the record, any decent sniper will wreck a pyro just like pyros seem to wreck you. and any decent stealth class will do in a sniper (but it's easier with a shadow/sin, imo). more of a rock, paper, scissors thing than class balance.

as a pyro pt, I know not to face tank a sniper. as a sorc, you need to know not to face tank a pyro pt. the strat has already been mentioned: dot, slow and run. although if you're a lightning spec, you might just jump to stun and run. maybe make use of that screwed up bubble stun.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Not every class can face tank every other class and do fine. So many ppl "qq" about not getting heals or their team sucking in warzones, but they themselves are the problem. In lightning, you have knock root, reduced c/d on lift, and bubble stun. If you keep your slow on the pt stun/sprint when grappled, and knock root for distance when they get close, there is relatively little they can do. As madness, you have slow, creeping terror root, and instant lift. Obviously that lift will fill a ton of resolve for a 2s stun if you have dots on them and it prematurely breaks, but it is an option if you must do it.
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Edonidd's Avatar


Edonidd
02.11.2013 , 04:24 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
I recently worked through this issue from a different perspective, the DPS Sorc vs. Scrapper/Operative point of view. As a Scrapper, I (And others) eventually figured out a pretty solid solution to fighting even against perfect DPS Sorcs, but that made use of a lot of CCs and abilities that Pyrotechs just don't have. I am pretty sure that if we apply the same DPS Sorc strategy to this fight that the PT have basically no chance of winning.

I will try and give the Pyrotech as many advantages as possible in this fight. We will assume all CDs are up on both sides. I will also assume that the DPS Sorc is speccd at a hybrid 0+/17+/17+ build with access to Bubble Stun, insta-Whirlwind, and Electric Bindings off of Overload. Madness Sorcs can also succeed, but it is slightly harder. I will time out the events using GCD timers:

OUR GOAL: Stay past 11 meters
PT GOAL: Stay at melee range.

Pre-fight: Sorc has bubble on himself. PT somehow got to melee range without us paying attention.
0-1.5: PT fires Flame Burst to get a DOT going. Sorc fires Affliction.
1.5-3: PT fires Thermal Detonator. Sorc fires Death Field.
3-4.5: PT fires Rail Shot. Bubble pops and stuns. Sorc fires Shock as he sidesteps back (~8m)
4.5-6: PT still stunned. Sorc re-bubbles and sidesteps more (~16m)
6-7.5: PT needs to reclose gap and Electro Dart stuns while moving forward (~8m). We break CC and fire Force Slow while sidestepping back (~25M).
7.5-9: PT now slowed and gap is widening. Fires Grapple bringing distance to 0M. We pop Bubble and Force Speed before running away (~20meters).
9-10.5. PT still stunned. We channel Crushing Darkness.
10.5-12: PT wakes up and walks forward (~8m) firing Explosive Dart. We finish channeling Darkness and rebubble while moving back (~25m).

The PT is now completely screwed. He has 2 DOTs ticking on him, no more grapple, and no more ranged stun. He is about 20 meters away from us and is about to be slowed by a channeled Force Lightning. The PT still has his CC break up, but we have both Electrocute and our insta-cast Whirlwind plus its 2 second stun at the end. If the PT ever somehow gets within 15 meters, we can just Overload and root him for 2-3 seconds while backing up. Or pop bubble when he is in our face. The only things he can do from afar are Rapid Shots, Unload, and Explosive Dart. We have another Force Slow in less than 6 seconds, Lightning, Affliction, Crushing Darkness, and Death Field. We also have have another bubble ready to use AND all of our healing abilities.

The fight is completely over.
Pretty obvious you have never played a sorcerer and have no idea how our bubble works at the very least. Other than it all being imaginary though, It is a good idea.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.11.2013 , 04:33 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post
Pretty obvious you have never played a sorcerer and have no idea how our bubble works at the very least. Other than it all being imaginary though, It is a good idea.
Woops! Added a premature rebubbling in there. Let's go back and edit.

OUR GOAL: Stay past 11 meters
PT GOAL: Stay at melee range.

Pre-fight: Sorc has bubble on himself. PT somehow got to melee range without us paying attention.
0-1.5: PT fires Flame Burst to get a DOT going. Sorc fires Affliction.
1.5-3: PT fires Thermal Detonator. Sorc fires Death Field.
3-4.5: PT fires Rail Shot. Bubble pops and stuns. Sorc fires Shock as he sidesteps back (~8m)
4.5-6: PT still stunned. Sorc sidesteps more (~16m)
6-7.5: PT needs to reclose gap and Electro Dart stuns while moving forward (~8m). We break CC and fire Force Slow while sidestepping back (~25M).
7.5-9: PT now slowed and gap is widening. Fires Grapple bringing distance to 0M. We fire Overload and lock him in bindings as we sidestep back (~15m including overload knockback).
9-10.5. PT fires Unload . We pop Force Speed and take off (~35m including knockback).
10.5-12: PT wakes up and walks forward (~8m) firing Explosive Dart. We channel Crushing Darkness

Now we are back where we were at the end of the last (Wrong) rotation. PT is still screwed and we are still going to win.

Also, as far as I understand the class, if a Sorc had cast Barrier on themselves 21+ seconds ago, he could still rebubble at the 4.5-6 GCD. If they bubbled before that (<20s ago) however, then they would have the deionize debuff. Is that still right? Or did that change since last March?

Similarly, if that bubble is up, can't Sorcs still right-click-remove the bubble at will? Or did BW change that as well in the last few months?
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Cretinus's Avatar


Cretinus
02.11.2013 , 06:04 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
Woops! Added a premature rebubbling in there. Let's go back and edit.

OUR GOAL: Stay past 11 meters
PT GOAL: Stay at melee range.

Pre-fight: Sorc has bubble on himself. PT somehow got to melee range without us paying attention.
0-1.5: PT fires Flame Burst to get a DOT going. Sorc fires Affliction.
1.5-3: PT fires Thermal Detonator. Sorc fires Death Field.
3-4.5: PT fires Rail Shot. Bubble pops and stuns. Sorc fires Shock as he sidesteps back (~8m)
4.5-6: PT still stunned. Sorc sidesteps more (~16m)
6-7.5: PT needs to reclose gap and Electro Dart stuns while moving forward (~8m). We break CC and fire Force Slow while sidestepping back (~25M).
7.5-9: PT now slowed and gap is widening. Fires Grapple bringing distance to 0M. We fire Overload and lock him in bindings as we sidestep back (~15m including overload knockback).
9-10.5. PT fires Unload . We pop Force Speed and take off (~35m including knockback).
10.5-12: PT wakes up and walks forward (~8m) firing Explosive Dart. We channel Crushing Darkness

Now we are back where we were at the end of the last (Wrong) rotation. PT is still screwed and we are still going to win.

Also, as far as I understand the class, if a Sorc had cast Barrier on themselves 21+ seconds ago, he could still rebubble at the 4.5-6 GCD. If they bubbled before that (<20s ago) however, then they would have the deionize debuff. Is that still right? Or did that change since last March?

Similarly, if that bubble is up, can't Sorcs still right-click-remove the bubble at will? Or did BW change that as well in the last few months?
This will only work if the sorcerer is so damn good (and the PT is so damn bad) that the PT doesn't fire one single good shot during the 2 minutes that it takes the sorcerer to kill him with dots and instants. If the PT fires a good one, the sorcerer is almost dead. This is basically the problem. The PT's burst is incredibly much higher on the sorc than the sorcerer's on the PT.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.11.2013 , 06:21 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Cretinus View Post
This will only work if the sorcerer is so damn good (and the PT is so damn bad) that the PT doesn't fire one single good shot during the 2 minutes that it takes the sorcerer to kill him with dots and instants. If the PT fires a good one, the sorcerer is almost dead. This is basically the problem. The PT's burst is incredibly much higher on the sorc than the sorcerer's on the PT.
What do you mean by "Good shot"? As in, a crit? Or something else? I just don't understand what you mean here.

Because as long as the Sorc knows what he is doing, he should always be able to keep the PT at least 11 meters away. Probably more. And if he can do that, then the PT can only Rapid Shots, Unload, Railshot (on the 16% chance that he applies a DOT with CGC and Rapid Shots/Unload), Explosive Dart, and Missile Blast (which is awful). The PT won't be able to use his most important abilities: Flame Burst, Incendiary Missile, Rocket Punch, or Thermal Detonator. That means no reliable burns, no railshot refresh, no damage boost because of active burns, etc. The CGC slow doesn't last long enough to keep the gap tight (30% slow for 2 seconds), so the sorc can always keep a large gap.

Meanwhile, the Sorc gets free reign with Affliction, Crushing Darkness, Death Field, Lightning, and Shock. The 50% Lightning slow screws up the PT even more, reducing his speed to a laughable 5 or so meters per GCD.

After the fight starts, the Sorc gets a bubble every 20 seconds, an Overload every 30 seconds, a 6s Slow every 12 seconds, and Speed every 20 seconds. The PT has only one gap closer (Grapple) on a 45s/35s CD. There is just no way for him to close the gap without that ability, and even if he does, the Sorc can instantly speed away.

The fight won't be over in 10 seconds, but the PT should never be able to finish the fight if all CDs are up. If they are NOT up, that's a whole different conversation with a lot of different variables.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

V-Serp's Avatar


V-Serp
02.11.2013 , 08:12 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
What do you mean by "Good shot"? As in, a crit? Or something else? I just don't understand what you mean here.

Because as long as the Sorc knows what he is doing, he should always be able to keep the PT at least 11 meters away. Probably more. And if he can do that, then the PT can only Rapid Shots, Unload, Railshot (on the 16% chance that he applies a DOT with CGC and Rapid Shots/Unload), Explosive Dart, and Missile Blast (which is awful). The PT won't be able to use his most important abilities: Flame Burst, Incendiary Missile, Rocket Punch, or Thermal Detonator. That means no reliable burns, no railshot refresh, no damage boost because of active burns, etc. The CGC slow doesn't last long enough to keep the gap tight (30% slow for 2 seconds), so the sorc can always keep a large gap.

Meanwhile, the Sorc gets free reign with Affliction, Crushing Darkness, Death Field, Lightning, and Shock. The 50% Lightning slow screws up the PT even more, reducing his speed to a laughable 5 or so meters per GCD.

After the fight starts, the Sorc gets a bubble every 20 seconds, an Overload every 30 seconds, a 6s Slow every 12 seconds, and Speed every 20 seconds. The PT has only one gap closer (Grapple) on a 45s/35s CD. There is just no way for him to close the gap without that ability, and even if he does, the Sorc can instantly speed away.

The fight won't be over in 10 seconds, but the PT should never be able to finish the fight if all CDs are up. If they are NOT up, that's a whole different conversation with a lot of different variables.
NURF SORC! Bioware I hope you're reading this, clearly all the Sorc/Sage are destroying all the Mara and PTs. That is ridiculous game balance Bioware.

NURF SORC! BUFF PT AND MARA! We need to balance this game so PT and Mara can compete with Sorc!

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.11.2013 , 10:23 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by V-Serp View Post
NURF SORC! Bioware I hope you're reading this, clearly all the Sorc/Sage are destroying all the Mara and PTs. That is ridiculous game balance Bioware.

NURF SORC! BUFF PT AND MARA! We need to balance this game so PT and Mara can compete with Sorc!
Not entirely sure where this is coming from.

1) That above scenario assumes a perfect sorcerer with all CDs up. Given the demands, stress, and chaos of a WZ/PvP fight, this is pretty darn rare. The only time you are likely to see it is if a Sorc and a PT both go 1v1 at a side node on Alderaan, and even then, one or both of them are likely to get stressed and use CDs at incorrect times. But at least theoretically, the advantage is to the Sorc.

2) I don't even mention Marauders, so I'm not sure where that is coming from. In fact, Maraders have a ton of tools to beat Sorcs, whether with Deadly Throw snares, Crippling Slash, Charge, Obliterate/Force Crush (in Rage), Force Camo, or a variety of other abilities.

3) As to PTs, Sorcs need a good PT matchup to compensate for other bad ones (Scrappers and Sins come to mind).
Similarly, PTs need some bad matchups to balance out their good ones.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

glocklB's Avatar


glocklB
02.12.2013 , 12:40 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by chrisronline View Post
Glock,

What are your stats and mod/enhancement choices? Even as 7/3/31, I'm not regularly critting for more than 4k - it's more of a rare occurrence which I attributed to under-geared opponents. I'm going for max power, which sounds like the opposite of what you're doing
i have 1114 expertise, 988.6 bonus damage and 78% crit bonus damage, 35.8% crit chance (~240 crit rating)
With all buffs and rakata stim

mods and enhancements are easy to choose actually. just pick optimal ones, additionally i don't have alacrity on anything but wh implants.
<Reckoning> The Red Eclipse - Marine, sorcerer
<Nostrum Dolus> Tomb of Freedon Nadd - Walsix, sage