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Sin Tank - Clarification on stat caps

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Sin Tank - Clarification on stat caps

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.10.2013 , 12:17 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Grumpftard View Post
Ok....I follow your math upto the point where you convert the 3.5% reduction on DPS but not sure on how you get it to the 2.46% defense.
Post mitigation DPS is ~512. 18 DPS 3.5% of 512 (you got this). The same 18 DPS, however, is identical to ~2.46 Defense though it requires some algebraic manipulation to see it easily: 2000 * (1-(.3+x))*(1-(.65*.6))*(1-.4) = (512-18); or 2.51 (I got 2.51 Defense rather than 2.46, but it's close enough to KeyboardNinja's for our purposes, especially since it's likely caused by some rounding errors).
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Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
02.10.2013 , 01:33 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Post mitigation DPS is ~512. 18 DPS 3.5% of 512 (you got this). The same 18 DPS, however, is identical to ~2.46 Defense though it requires some algebraic manipulation to see it easily: 2000 * (1-(.3+x))*(1-(.65*.6))*(1-.4) = (512-18); or 2.51 (I got 2.51 Defense rather than 2.46, but it's close enough to KeyboardNinja's for our purposes, especially since it's likely caused by some rounding errors).
That's what I needed...Thank you kindly
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Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
02.11.2013 , 06:30 PM | #23
Update:
If you actually can prove the mitigational equivilant of healing and I calculated correctly (that's the dangerous part)...assuming maximum up-time at 25 HPS....the math would be...
2000 * (1-(.3+x))*(1-(.65*.6))*(1-.4) = (512-25); where x=0.0347 or 3.47%
Then the DG Ephemeral Mending is roughly the equivilant of having a relic with 189.6 Defense rating.
Easily best relic. (Unless I jacked this up)

caveat: I know there were some general assumptions involved in the calculating of 512 post mitigated DPS, so this won't be entirely exact in real-time application.
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"You don't have to say more than that!!"
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Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
02.12.2013 , 09:30 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Even at 800 DPS, I have no idea how you hold agro in the opening volley of every fight without using guard and/or taunt. Once you factor in threat multipliers on abilities, 800 DPS corresponds to about 1950 TPS. That's very solid, but my Combat Sentinel breaks 2.4k DPS for the first 15 seconds of every fight (w/ Adrenal, Inspiration and average crits). Even with a guard, that's a pretty close call on threat. Without a guard, I would be face tanking within seconds of hitting the boss. I really would very, very much like to meet you on the PTS sometime, because I honestly would love to know *how* you can keep threat without guard/taunt against that kind of onslaught.
I second this.

A min-maxed Combat Sent using a correct opening rotation, DG pop relic, Adrenal, and Inspiration, and no Guard? I'm not doubting Kitru per se, but I just don't understand how it can be done to be honest.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.12.2013 , 10:15 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
A min-maxed Combat Sent using a correct opening rotation, DG pop relic, Adrenal, and Inspiration, and no Guard? I'm not doubting Kitru per se, but I just don't understand how it can be done to be honest.
First off, it should be noted that we don't have the DPS blow Inspiration right off the bat so they're not getting *that* (though I wouldn't put it past em on some of their runs). Also, I haven't run with a top tier Combat Sentinel so I don't have a decent frame of reference for their burst threat generation: I'm used to running with a Watchman Sentinel and an Assault VG. I will say that it's not necessary to actually outthreat someone to keep aggro off of them: if you jump in first, you only need to maintain 77% of their threat to keep aggro. At 2.5k burst threat generation, that's ~1925 TPS required of the tank, which is entirely possible for the first ~15 seconds of a fight (esp if you blow a power adrenal beforehand, FP with TkT, etc.).
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Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
02.13.2013 , 12:55 PM | #26
Hmmmm. I agree that it's quite feasible in terms of DPS vs TPS; it's more that Combat Sents can hit a phenomenal spike about 5-6 GCDs in to the fight (last tick of MS + autocrit Blade Storm). I haven't seen a tank hold that off without guard, but I'd never say never.
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MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
02.13.2013 , 07:09 PM | #27
Do note that shadows also have significant self-healing, which generates threat as well.

Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
02.14.2013 , 08:47 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Do note that shadows also have significant self-healing, which generates threat as well.
I still havemy doubts on that one. If I'm gonna get pulled off of, then 99% of the time it's during that first Force Lightning. To the point where on any given boss fight I will hold off with FL until I can get those first couple taunts off.
It just always seems like that is the critical time when my threat gen just drops.
TORVA NEX! (The Site) (The Video)
"You don't have to say more than that!!"
Grumpf =Tankasin / G'rumpf =Mara / Gru'mpf =Jugg / Grum'pf =P-Tech
Grump'f =Shadow / G'rump'f =Scoundrel / Gr'umpf =Operative / Jei'Dahl =Merc

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
02.14.2013 , 09:14 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Grumpftard View Post
I still havemy doubts on that one. If I'm gonna get pulled off of, then 99% of the time it's during that first Force Lightning. To the point where on any given boss fight I will hold off with FL until I can get those first couple taunts off.
It just always seems like that is the critical time when my threat gen just drops.
Recklessness, my man.

Shock > Wither > Discharge > Taunt (between GCDs) > Shock > Recklessness > FL > normal rotation > nap

With ubergoober DPS, you can always chuck the AoE taunt as soon as the single target wears, assuming you don't have another need for it in the following 45 seconds (unlikely, on any current boss).

Edit: For the record, besides taunts, FL is the 2nd largest contributor to single target TPS. Shock is #1, FL is #2, Wither is #3.
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Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
02.14.2013 , 03:29 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Recklessness, my man.

Shock > Wither > Discharge > Taunt (between GCDs) > Shock > Recklessness > FL > normal rotation > nap

With ubergoober DPS, you can always chuck the AoE taunt as soon as the single target wears, assuming you don't have another need for it in the following 45 seconds (unlikely, on any current boss).

Edit: For the record, besides taunts, FL is the 2nd largest contributor to single target TPS. Shock is #1, FL is #2, Wither is #3.
I usually use one Thrash/Double Strike after the Discharge and a 2nd one if it doesn't proc the shock, it is possible to lose aggro if you wait for shock to be ready by its natural cooldown. That's usually one of the rare spots for Thrash, I also still try to proc Energize for the 2nd charge on Recklessness like a total noob but I reckon it's better used on Wither.

If you can afford it (according to the boss fight) you can start with Force Pull for a base of 5k threat, it's not as much as a procced shock but better than a non proc shock. Anyway, only boss fight where tanks can get into trouble is the TFB on 16 man since it's unfeasible to guard all the dps or have the "best" tank take the best dps like on 8 man. But here you can use the orbs I guess, never tried those on HM, or you can walk 4-5m and taunt.

On the note of TPS which I've tested, I presume I can get decent numbers on my assassin as a dps and at 19 sec in the fight I'm sitting at 2.5k dps, 38 sec it's 2.4k dps. This is with using everything for a burst as soon as the fight starts. While tanking I got 45k threat or so at around 20 seconds last time on the tentacles (10% gain from taunts instead of 30% since I keep staying close). So yeah if a dps pulls around 3k dps from the start and keeps it up for more than 20-25 sec (3 taunt rotations + start of the fight) without ever dropping threat they'll probably pull :-(

P.S. I forgot what I actually wanted to say when quoting you and remembered: Recklessness won't save you, yes it increases the crit chance by 60% of each FL tick but it's only a 51% increase in damage if they proc, and not all of the ticks proc. So overall it's nice to use but if you would've lost aggro without it, you'll still lose it with. Focus on rotation/ augments (12 power on each) first.