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PUG requirements for raiding


grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
02.08.2013 , 01:35 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I'd be less inclined to take them in that scenario. Mainstat is better than power on a 1:1 basis for all classes (within the current gearing range), so when someone augs for Power it's a sign they haven't done their homework well enough.
Actually that only applies when you have a +% main stat boost from the tree. Without that, Power comes out ahead on Bonus Damage but doesn't increase Crit at all. With a +9% main stat boost they are within a few points of Bonus Damage but the main stat gives crit as well. That said, this only applies to Sentinels and Shadows, everyone else has a bonus to main stat.

My biggest thing here is that they have optimized for SOMETHING so they understand more than someone that uses stock gear and it shows they have tried to better themselves. Whether or not I agree with their method of optimization is an entirely different argument.
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steave's Avatar


steave
02.08.2013 , 06:24 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
Lets do some homework shall we?

Let start with a lowish strength character say of stock unoptimized pure columi (say this one I posted here the other day):

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...4-5721e8ae4079

This one has power augments so lets work out the stats to see the damage (including crit) as one number vs the same build but with might augments. For simplicity sake I won't take accuracy into consideration but it wont affect the point I am going to make as I'm not adding any accuracy changes.

First up power:

Damage primary = 743.5 - 894.5 so mean average is 819

Damage secondary = 199.3 - 299 so avg is 249.15

Ignoring accuracy 819 + 249.5 = 1068.5 this is average normal weapon damage

So lets work out the crit for that:

70.81 % (surge) will be added to that at 32.98 % of the time so 768.28 32.98% of the time is 253.37.

So 253.37 crit plus 1068.5 normal weapon damage = 1321.87 average melee damage


Next strength:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...7-ebd3e41c276f

Damage primary = 738.2 - 889.2 so mean average is 813.8

Damage secondary = 199.3 - 299 so avg is 249.15

Ignoring accuracy 813.8 + 249.5 = 1063.3 this is average normal weapon damage

So lets work out the crit for that:

70.81 % (surge) will be added to that at 34.35 % of the time so 752.92 34.35% of the time is 258.63.

So 258.63 crit plus 1063.3 normal weapon damage = 1321.93 average melee damage

You might be thinking I just proved you right (just by 0.06 damage), but don't forget this was based off a columi character who start off with lower stats ceiling from the offset, what about someone in optimized rakata and above who are most probably already stacking enough crit? Is the extra main stat then really worth the risk of diminishing returns where you'll be losing a lot more than a small number like 0.06?
What that isn't taking into account though is that strongest attack auto crit anyway - force scream (carnage spec) has 6 seconds of always critting after each ataru form extra attack, and massacre guarantees one one of those. On all my other charachters I stack mainstat, but due to that and the lack of a strength boost in the tree I augment my marauder for power.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
02.08.2013 , 08:22 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Actually that only applies when you have a +% main stat boost from the tree. Without that, Power comes out ahead on Bonus Damage but doesn't increase Crit at all. With a +9% main stat boost they are within a few points of Bonus Damage but the main stat gives crit as well. That said, this only applies to Sentinels and Shadows, everyone else has a bonus to main stat.
Actually, even for Sentinels Strength > Power.

Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
You might be thinking I just proved you right (just by 0.06 damage), but don't forget this was based off a columi character who start off with lower stats ceiling from the offset, what about someone in optimized rakata and above who are most probably already stacking enough crit? Is the extra main stat then really worth the risk of diminishing returns where you'll be losing a lot more than a small number like 0.06?
A few points.

1. DR on mainstat is very flat. You don't lose a "lot more".

2. Your math is overly-simplified. I don't want to argue it since it's been beaten to death by now, but search through LagunaD's posts if you really want to dig into it.
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Kitru
02.08.2013 , 09:43 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
1. DR on mainstat is very flat. You don't lose a "lot more".
IIRC, you have to have somewhere broaching 8000 mainstat before the diminishing returns on mainstat critical hit rating contributions make it *equal* to Power on real returns (neither of their Bonus Damage contributions have any DR). It takes an *obscene* amount of mainstat to actually have DR have any substantial impact upon it.
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wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
02.08.2013 , 10:36 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
If that is what the raidleader and group is comfortable with, the yes it is reasonable. Asked and answered in my post above, but you stopped reading.

There is no right answer unless you know the players skill and usually if you know their skill they are not a pug, but someone you invited.
They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.

Viridiana's Avatar


Viridiana
02.08.2013 , 11:07 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.
They are asking that because everytime they do rather than getting serious responses they get people saying, 1800 main stat for TFB SM is retarded, you can do that in tion gear, the OP is thinking that maybe 1800 was too high of a requirement, not trying to validate what requirement they are asking for their pugs to have to join raids.

Also keep in mind if you run with your guild all the time they could easily carry someone with 1200 main stat through anything short of EC NMM/TFB HM, but a pug is a random chance on being good or bad, asking for 1800 is bascially saying, have you played enough at lvl 50 to at least know how to get some decent gear ?

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Khevar
02.08.2013 , 11:23 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.
If you had a partial group for SM EC (and were pugging the rest), how many wipes, wasted time and repair bills would you go through before you decided on some way of lessening the pain?

Sure, SM EC and SM TfB are easy content if you're good at the game. It's a bit hard to know how good a stranger is. Asking for players with decent gear is simply a safety net.

With the exception of JK/SW, dps/healing classes can hit 1800 mainstat with Columi + a few pieces of Rakata/BH. As far as overgearing goes, that's pretty mild. I would expect any level 50 player to have some Rakata/BH before pugging EC/TfB (unless they're bringing a new alt and already know the fights cold).

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.08.2013 , 11:41 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by wainot-keel View Post
They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.
Let me pick 7 random strangers to do SM TfB or SM EC with everyone in columi gear, and then tell me that is easy content. HM EC is easy content now, not because it is easy, but because people have the gear and know the instance.

Without knowing the group's skill and the group's gear level, it is impossible to say if 1800 requirement is reasonable or not. So I will stick with my comment, if they are comfortable with 1800 main stat then it is reasonable.

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
02.08.2013 , 03:00 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
Let me pick 7 random strangers to do SM TfB or SM EC with everyone in columi gear, and then tell me that is easy content.
I've done it in mostly columi, with a PuG group in mostly columi.. and it's acceptable content for that gear level, nobody was too squishy or hitting enrages and only one wipe.

I've also done it with groups with everyone in 61's/63's and a teamspeak server... and failed.
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mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.08.2013 , 06:39 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
I've done it in mostly columi, with a PuG group in mostly columi.. and it's acceptable content for that gear level, nobody was too squishy or hitting enrages and only one wipe.
Well I did not pick them out did I? I am not saying it is not possible, my guild had me in there my second operation as a watchman and I did HM LI before I even finished my class mission. So I know anyone learn to do either, but I had the benefit of doing SM EC and HM LI over and over on a sawbones and a shadow. So I knew both very well.

No, if I pick 7 people to prove my point they will be 7 mains that have never been there. I am evil like that.