Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

DPS Sage vs DPS Commando


KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.03.2013 , 11:35 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I think you're confused about threat dumps.

They are off the gcd. As long as you don't use one in the middle of a channeled cast, it will have no affect on a dps' rotation/priority list.
There is presently a bug with the mercenary threat dump which causes it to consume a GCD. This may be where his misconception is stemming from. No other threat dump has this problem.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
02.04.2013 , 05:23 AM | #12
Let me fix that for ya.....

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post

Come again? Priority queue for a gunnery commando:
  • Full Auto (if Curtain of Fire expiring)
  • High Impact Bolt (if <4.5 seconds since Full Auto)
  • Demo Round (if 5 stack of Gravity Vortex >4s remaining & High Impact Bolt on CD)
  • Charged Bolts (if >4.5s since Curtain of Fire)
  • Grav Round (if Gravity Vortex <3s remaining or <5 stack of Gravity Vortex or Charged Barrel)
  • Full Auto (if Curtain of Fire && 5 stack of Gravity Vortex && Tech Overide && 30 stack of Combat Support Cell ~ if that's how you roll )
  • High Impact Bolt (if 5 stack of Charged Barrel)
  • Full Auto (if Curtain of Fire)
  • Hail of Bolts/ Explosive Round/ Plasma Grenade/ Pulse Cannon (Reserve Powercell on CD)
  • Hammer Shot/ Sticky Grenade (if moving or maintaining a 30 stack of Combat Support Cell)


Compare that to the priority queue for a TK sage:
  • Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection expiring)
  • Telekinetic Wave (if >8.5s since Tidal Force)
  • Turbulence (if Weaken Mind >1.8s remaining)
  • Mind Crush
  • Weaken Mind (if not ticking)
  • Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection && Tidal Force && Force Potency)
  • Telekinetic Wave (if Tidal Force)
  • Telekinetic Throw (if Psychic Projection)
  • Disturbance( if Concentration <2s remaining or < 3 stack of Concentration, x2 if <8.5s since Psychic Projection)
  • Project (if moving)

That…doesn't look even remotely similar. They really are radically different classes. The buffs and procs that a TK sage has to watch for are staggeringly complex, relative to the four-button simplicity of a commando. Honestly, I'm not sure where this comparison comes from.


That...doesn't look.............................................. .................radically different............ The buffs and procs that a TK sage has to watch......are....................complex, just like.................................................a commando. Honestly, I see.......where this comparison comes from.
The biggest differences are...

1. The proc from the rotation filling Disturbance can create the force needed for the mobile Project casts, and the AoE Force Wave is part of the single target rotation. While the trooper relies on the ammo saved with mobile Hammer Shot casts to create the ammo for the rotation filling AoE, and the normal rotation is purely single target abilities. Gunnery always has something to cast while moving, while TK Sage may not.

2. Gravity Vortex and Weaken mind both "tick" for 15 seconds. But Grav Round is a 2 second cast while Weaken mind is a mobile instant. Gunnery doesn't get a instant cast proc from Curtain of Fire for Full Auto ~ instead it relies on all of it's stacks being maintained to achieve optimal performance. This makes Gunnery performance more vulnerable to interrupts and cleanses than TK Sage. It takes Gunnery 4.5s of turret casting to build a 5 stack of Gravity Vortex, but only 1.5s of a mobile instant for TK Sage to get Weaken Mind ticking again.

3. High Impact Bolt/ Grav Round fit into the Gunnery steady state rotation backward from TK Wave/ Weaken Mind.
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.04.2013 , 10:23 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
Let me fix that for ya.....
I don't play gunnery spec on any of my main characters (my commando is a healer), but things like this look highly suspicious to me:

Quote:
Charged Bolts (if >4.5s since Curtain of Fire)
That…doesn't make any sense. CB and GR have the same proc chance (despite superstition to the contrary on the part of most commandos). CB isn't a flurry attack. Mathematically, the correct CB priority is to completely replace GR when you already have 5 stacks of CB and you need another spam attack, since CB does more damage than GR. The rest of your priority queue is suspicious as well, since CoF lasts long enough to sustain a 3 second HiB + DR, and FA is the next highest in priority, meaning that you will *never* see the proc "about to expire".

Also…

Quote:
…maintaining a 30 stack of Combat Support Cell)
…uh? If you're not using Armor-piercing Cell, you're doing it wrong. You will be ammo starved and your DPS will be *significantly* lower than it should be.

More importantly…

Quote:
Disturbance( if Concentration <2s remaining or < 3 stack of Concentration, x2 if <8.5s since Psychic Projection)
This is just wrong. Have you actually played TK? Disturbance is the main spam ability. In fact, your "fixed" priority queue for TK is somewhat hilarious since it leaves several GCDs where the sage has *nothing* to do.

The main reason to spam Disturbance has nothing to do with Concentration, which is actually a comparatively minor proc given the other things which improve mana management. As for Psychic Projection, that is a proc from Weaken Mind, not from Disturbance. Disturbance is ALL about Tidal Wave and Tremors. Tremors is especially important, but also very fiddly since Disturbance only has a 30% chance to even refresh the buff. Tremors does last for 30 seconds, but the consequences for allowing it to drop off are so severe that Disturbance spam (when nothing else obvious is up) tends to be the requisite approach. There are so many other abilities *above* Disturbance in priority that Tremors can sometimes drop even when spamming Disturbance as much as time allows.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
The biggest differences are...

1. The proc from the rotation filling Disturbance can create the force needed for the mobile Project casts, and the AoE Force Wave is part of the single target rotation. While the trooper relies on the ammo saved with mobile Hammer Shot casts to create the ammo for the rotation filling AoE, and the normal rotation is purely single target abilities. Gunnery always has something to cast while moving, while TK Sage may not.
Actually, "creating the force" is something a TK sage *never* cares about. And by "never" I mean absolutely never. You can mobile Project to your heart's content in TK without breaking a sweat. This is perhaps the most glaring difference between the specs: TK has effectively no force management whatsoever. Energy is just…always there. Compare that to the commando, which has a very effort-intensive energy mechanic.

As for your rotation filling AoE, I didn't comment about this in your priority queue, but it is wrong. Plasma Grenade is arguably very strong as a filler (when above 5 stacks of CB), but only if you have Reserve Powercell. Without RPC, your ammo will drop like a stone, and none of the cheaper AoEs (which are still quite expensive) are worthwhile in the single-target rotation.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
2. Gravity Vortex and Weaken mind both "tick" for 15 seconds.
Again, you do not appear to have ever played the TK spec. Weaken Mind is a 21 second DoT (Disturb Mind talent, second tier).

Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
But Grav Round is a 2 second cast while Weaken mind is a mobile instant.
Grav Round is a 1.5 second cast without the Alacrity proc.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
Gunnery doesn't get a instant cast proc from Curtain of Fire for Full Auto ~ instead it relies on all of it's stacks being maintained to achieve optimal performance. This makes Gunnery performance more vulnerable to interrupts and cleanses than TK Sage.
Grav Round stacks cannot be cleansed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
It takes Gunnery 4.5s of turret casting to build a 5 stack of Gravity Vortex, but only 1.5s of a mobile instant for TK Sage to get Weaken Mind ticking again.
Even still, it is a *massive* loss in DPS to do so. Weaken Mind is a very low-damage ability, meaning that wasting a GCD on its application is a pretty significant hit. If I'm going up against a TK sage on a healer, I cleanse like a maniac, especially if I see them casting Turbulence.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
3. High Impact Bolt/ Grav Round fit into the Gunnery steady state rotation backward from TK Wave/ Weaken Mind.
I don't know what this means…

In any case, it really doesn't look like you actually know the TK spec, and there are a lot of things that you're saying about gunnery commandos which make absolutely no sense. The analogy you're trying to force between the two trees just isn't there. They don't play the same, they don't feel the same, and their abilities don't mirror in any way whatsoever.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
02.04.2013 , 12:43 PM | #14
They are both ranged DPS. There are similarities, but if they were that comparable, they would be mirror classes. They aren't. Play whichever one you find more fun.

iFruit's Avatar


iFruit
02.06.2013 , 10:28 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
They are both ranged DPS. There are similarities, but if they were that comparable, they would be mirror classes. They aren't. Play whichever one you find more fun.
I'd say they're both great fun my Gunnery dude makes all the difference in a raid DPS-wise (just sit back and enjoy the massive numbers), never PvPed on it though. Sage I'm just lvling (hybrid based off balance+3rd tier talent in telekinetics, good guide on this build somewhere in these threads), lvl 34 atm and he's a blast in WZs always 1st/2nd place on DPS and kills - around 350-400k and 25-40 kills. So they're both very cool
<PLAYER NOT FOUND>