Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Disturbance/Lightning Strike: Why do these do so little damage?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Disturbance/Lightning Strike: Why do these do so little damage?

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
02.05.2013 , 11:07 PM | #1
These two abilities are level 10 powers given to Sages/Sorcerers upon taking that Advanced Class. The ability is a 1.5 second cast with no recast time. It seems most analogous to the Gunslinger/Sniper's ability Charged Burst/Snipe (which has the same cast time/no recast time). However, that power does about 3 to 4 times the damage. It does require cover, but that doesn't seem to justify such a high differential.

I know that it's not exactly fair to look at powers in isolation, but Disturbance/Lightning Strike is a core ability for Sages. And really only the Telekinetics/Lightning tree even has any call to use the ability at all. I don't know that this power should be as strong as Snipe, but it shouldn't be so ridiculously weak as it is.
Republic Level 55s - Alana, Rickta, Nal'aa, Alan, Myschal, Sinbad, Frank'lin, Angiola, Vesnas, Nightsail, Mioni & Hard-Top
Imp Level 55s - Palatine, Ztephanie, Frank-lin, Ka'Mate, Chisami, Azureraven, Curiosi-dux, Vodoun, Thofia

Xeraz's Avatar


Xeraz
02.06.2013 , 12:57 AM | #2
Honestly I have no clue.
"Who I am is not important, my message is."

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.06.2013 , 01:03 AM | #3
Disturbance/Lightning Strike is functionally the Sage/Sorc's "basic attack" (yes, it costs Force to use, but it's a pittance). It does pitiful damage because it's not supposed to be a heavy hitter, like Charged Burst, which, rather than being a basic attack, is a basic resource consumer. Sages/Sorcs, because they have comparatively massive resource pools compared to everyone else in the game, have a different paradigm for their abilities than pretty much every other AC out there. As such, their "basic attack" is a cast time ability that consumes a modicum of Force. That's just how they work.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
02.06.2013 , 06:07 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Disturbance/Lightning Strike is functionally the Sage/Sorc's "basic attack" (yes, it costs Force to use, but it's a pittance). It does pitiful damage because it's not supposed to be a heavy hitter, like Charged Burst, which, rather than being a basic attack, is a basic resource consumer. Sages/Sorcs, because they have comparatively massive resource pools compared to everyone else in the game, have a different paradigm for their abilities than pretty much every other AC out there. As such, their "basic attack" is a cast time ability that consumes a modicum of Force. That's just how they work.
Then the power shouldn't have such a high cast time. 1.5 sec is an eternity in this game. It really should be an instant ability. But better IMO for Sages/Sorcerors to have a basic "burst" ability.

And as a 'basic attack' it also fails because Seers and Balance specs really don't get anything from using it at all. Balance's spamming attack is TK throw.
Republic Level 55s - Alana, Rickta, Nal'aa, Alan, Myschal, Sinbad, Frank'lin, Angiola, Vesnas, Nightsail, Mioni & Hard-Top
Imp Level 55s - Palatine, Ztephanie, Frank-lin, Ka'Mate, Chisami, Azureraven, Curiosi-dux, Vodoun, Thofia

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.06.2013 , 11:23 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
Then the power shouldn't have such a high cast time.
It's the basic attack for a class designed around old school turret mage classes. The 1.5 sec cast time (which should never be described as a "high cast time"; your problem is that, as a basic attack, it *has* a cast time, not the length of it, which is the same length as a standard GCD) simply emphasizes the whole "turret" aspect that Sages have to operate around (and, yes, they do have to operate around a turret design because they're cast focused). Giving it a lower cast time would improve its outright DPS capability, while making it instant-cast would remove the turret nature. Keep in mind, if you spam Disturbance, you're going to deal more damage than someone else just spamming their basic attack (assuming similar gear, etc) so they're not intended to be directly equal. As I said before, Sages, thanks to having a drastically different resource paradigm than all of the other classes in game, have abilities that adhere to a different cost:effect paradigm.

Quote:
And as a 'basic attack' it also fails because Seers and Balance specs really don't get anything from using it at all. Balance's spamming attack is TK throw.
First off, pretty much everyone has almost nothing that augments their basic attack so the fact that Seers don't get anything from it really doesn't mean much: they're healers, not DPS so it wouldn't make much sense for them to arbitrarily get something to improve it (Commandos just get Hammer Shot turned into a heal because it was a kewl way for them to get a free heal rather than just giving them a separate ability that was a free heal). Balance Sages still feasibly use Disturbance as a basic attack except that they have the *better* option of their talented and boosted TkT so there isn't much point. Noting that Balance doesn't really use Disturbance *ever* doesn't really mean anything; as I said multiple times before, Sages are different and, as such, Balance Sages got talents to "trade up" their basic attack. It has no bearing on Disturbance still being the nominal basic attack.

You're also failing to understand why I put "basic attack" in quotes, rather than just saying it without. Disturbance is *not* supposed to be mechanically identical to a basic attack. It's not even remotely close to behaving like one on the surface: it costs resources (no true basic attack does), it requires you to stand still (no true basic attack does), is a Force attack (no true basic attack is), can be interrupted (no true basic attack can be), and deals more than basic bonus damage (all true basic attacks deal bonus damage + weapon damage and that's all). It's *not* an actual basic attack, but it serves a similar role in the Sage's massive-resource-pool-for-a-turret-class paradigm, so it's *like* a basic attack for them.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
02.06.2013 , 03:30 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're also failing to understand why I put "basic attack" in quotes, rather than just saying it without. Disturbance is *not* supposed to be mechanically identical to a basic attack. It's not even remotely close to behaving like one on the surface: it costs resources (no true basic attack does), it requires you to stand still (no true basic attack does), is a Force attack (no true basic attack is), can be interrupted (no true basic attack can be), and deals more than basic bonus damage (all true basic attacks deal bonus damage + weapon damage and that's all). It's *not* an actual basic attack, but it serves a similar role in the Sage's massive-resource-pool-for-a-turret-class paradigm, so it's *like* a basic attack for them.
No, I understand just fine. But you just succinctly explained why this attack ISN'T a basic attack. It has little in common with a basic attack. It doesn't even fill the same purpose for the class as a basic attack. I see and understand your position, but you're speculating about this power's purpose. It fails as a basic attack. Personally, I would see Weaken Mind more as our "basic" attack. (See I can use quotes too! )

You are still the master of Shadows, but I not with you on this power.
Republic Level 55s - Alana, Rickta, Nal'aa, Alan, Myschal, Sinbad, Frank'lin, Angiola, Vesnas, Nightsail, Mioni & Hard-Top
Imp Level 55s - Palatine, Ztephanie, Frank-lin, Ka'Mate, Chisami, Azureraven, Curiosi-dux, Vodoun, Thofia

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.06.2013 , 05:35 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
No, I understand just fine. But you just succinctly explained why this attack ISN'T a basic attack. It has little in common with a basic attack. It doesn't even fill the same purpose for the class as a basic attack. I see and understand your position, but you're speculating about this power's purpose. It fails as a basic attack. Personally, I would see Weaken Mind more as our "basic" attack.
Weaken Mind fails the "basic attack" test mainly because it's a DoT: chain casting Weaken Mind isn't going to do you any good since you're just refreshing the DoT. A basic attack has to be functional but suboptimal in a vast majority of situations (re: it has to be the last thing on your priority list). Disturbance is just that. It's not optimal for *any* Sage spec. It's the least important ability for any Sage (Seers would rather reapply Weaken Mind and/or use TkT if it's not on CD, but Disturbance is what they use when they have to deal damage and fill in empty GCDs otherwise; for TK, it's explicitly the "basic attack" that is spammed when there is nothing else; Balance simply replaces Disturbance with TkT by removing the CD on TkT) which fits in with how a basic attack would work within the Sage resource paradigm.

It's not *supposed* to match Charged Burst or Charged Bolts just because they have largely identical non-damage attributes (1.5 sec cast time, no CD) because those abilities don't fall within the same resource paradigm. Sages are different and, as such, their abilities are different. The role of a "basic attack" is determined by the intended use of the ability rather than by the abstracts of its actual function: Disturbance is pretty much designed to act as the basic attack for a turret class with a massive resource pool, which is why I say it's the "basic attack" even if it doesn't actually match a basic attack using the nominal traits all other basic attacks share. All of those other basic attacks exist within a largely similar resource paradigm (small-ish resource pool with attacks that consume substantial percentage amounts with similarly substantial percentage regeneration on a per second basis); since Sages exist within a functionally unique resource paradigm (massive resource pool with attacks that consume minute portions of total resource on a percentage basis with miniscule percentage regeneration on a per second basis), their "basic attack" should be similarly unique. Attaching the same assumptions to it that you do to all other basic attacks is simply ignorant of the fundamental differences between Sages and every other AC.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
02.06.2013 , 07:21 PM | #8
Part of the is that lightning strike is designed like an auto attack for the lightning spec. The fact that lightning strike costs force is offset by subversion in the spec which keeps a stack of force regeneration boost on the sorcerer. The problem is that the aforementioned buff has a very short upkeep time. This is generally bad as in pvp this buff can be very hard to maintain making it so that the lightning strike's regeneration function does not work effectively in pvp.

Additionally this move is necessary more often than regular basic attacks. It is needed to proc lightning storm and is needed whenever crushing darkness/thundering blast are on cooldown or you have a proc. Its damage is only lightly above that of of a basic attack and yet it requires cast meaning it is inferior to basic attack in the mobility area. Even in PVE maintaining optimal Full lightning damage can be very difficult due to all the casting and immobility which stems largely from the fact that Full lightning has a filler attack that has a cast time. Additionally the lightning strike is affected by armor making it even worse against targets without an armor debuff (which sorcs don't have any armor penetration abilities despite being very affected by armor)

All this adds up to why lightning strike is one of the worse attacks in the game and its not like sorcs are topping the dps charts in pve anyway. But ill keep it simple with an example.

Lightning strike casted via wrath proc (wrath makes your next cast do 20% more damage and be instant) is a dps loss over just casting force lightning. How sad is it that a casted ability made instant cast with 20% more damage still is worse than madness's filler move.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
02.07.2013 , 09:02 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
Lightning strike casted via wrath proc (wrath makes your next cast do 20% more damage and be instant) is a dps loss over just casting force lightning. How sad is it that a casted ability made instant cast with 20% more damage still is worse than madness's filler move.
Exactly right. These powers just don't make sense. If they are intended to be our filler move, then make it insta-cast and make Presence of Mind (and the Madness equivalent) and other boosts to it increase its damage significantly.
Republic Level 55s - Alana, Rickta, Nal'aa, Alan, Myschal, Sinbad, Frank'lin, Angiola, Vesnas, Nightsail, Mioni & Hard-Top
Imp Level 55s - Palatine, Ztephanie, Frank-lin, Ka'Mate, Chisami, Azureraven, Curiosi-dux, Vodoun, Thofia

DrewFromPhilly's Avatar


DrewFromPhilly
02.07.2013 , 10:32 AM | #10
Iirc they did more damage at release and have since been nerfed.