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PUG requirements for raiding


MDR_WeedKnight's Avatar


MDR_WeedKnight
02.05.2013 , 01:30 PM | #21
[QUOTE=soowonlee;5820389]
Quote: Originally Posted by MDR_WeedKnight View Post


If you're a vanguard stacking defense, then you're doing it wrong.

I have played my vanguard since day one of early release and have had many build high endurance, high shield and high defense. The parse data does not lie in high defense i take much less damage than any other build i have tried. When i join as a pug the healers of that group always comment on how smooth and easy my tank was to heal and keep alive. Try it out yourself and you will see.

Lugosi's Avatar


Lugosi
02.05.2013 , 01:52 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by jasonthelamb View Post
tank with tank stats > tank with endurance over 2000
Aye, true. But a tank with 2000 endurance probably has decent tank stats. Unless they are wearing endurance heavy dps gear.
Bargain not with the darkness, in time it will take us all.
Arms of the Abyss
Ilith - Akhroma - Molybdenum

soowonlee's Avatar


soowonlee
02.05.2013 , 01:53 PM | #23
Assuming a finite stat pool, you face a zero sum situation with respect to the three secondary defensive statistics. Thus, you stack defense at the expense of stacking either shield or absorb.

The problem with this in the vanguard class is that you waste talents in your skill tree that buff your shield and absorb by adding a percentage of the total. Here are the talents:

Shield Cycler: 2% bonus to shield chance
Ceramic Plating: 4% bonus to absorb
Power Screen: 8% bonus to absorb when fully stacked
Counterattack: 6% bonus to shield chance

Having a low shield chance or absorb means having lower bonuses. This is undeniable regardless of what you may have experienced or what healers may have told you.
Bartemaeus
The Harbinger - <Textbook Execution>

MDR_WeedKnight's Avatar


MDR_WeedKnight
02.05.2013 , 02:07 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by soowonlee View Post
Assuming a finite stat pool, you face a zero sum situation with respect to the three secondary defensive statistics. Thus, you stack defense at the expense of stacking either shield or absorb.

The problem with this in the vanguard class is that you waste talents in your skill tree that buff your shield and absorb by adding a percentage of the total. Here are the talents:

Shield Cycler: 2% bonus to shield chance
Ceramic Plating: 4% bonus to absorb
Power Screen: 8% bonus to absorb when fully stacked
Counterattack: 6% bonus to shield chance

Having a low shield chance or absorb means having lower bonuses. This is undeniable regardless of what you may have experienced or what healers may have told you.
This is the wonderful thing about games like this people seem to think there is only one way to do things but there are many different ways of doing things.

My three main defensive stats are:
Defence 28%
Shield Chance 53%
Absorbe is 52, 60 with power screen
26500 hp


I have had no problems doing tfb hm or ec nim.
I like to outright avoid the damage than to mitigate it through the shield.
But this just my opinion and we all know about opinions right

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.05.2013 , 02:13 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by soowonlee View Post
Of course, this will automatically filter out all noobs who don't even know where the combat dummy is, much less how to use any raid parser. But maybe this is a desired result.
It is on my ship and they are not allowed there.

The one on the fleets can be laggy especially on busy nights if they haven't taken the game down in a couple weeks, but still may be the place to do it since the operations can be laggy too under those circumstances.

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
02.05.2013 , 02:19 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Lugosi View Post
After plugging some gear into Ask Mr Robot for sorc dps I found the following, I realize classes are different, warrior gets stuck with a lot of power and snipers a lot of endurance. But, full columi, class matrix cube, class buffs, stim, and 6% from the class tree puts you just shy of 1800. So perhaps 1800 wasn't quite as conservative as I was originally thinking, still easily achievable though if if you spend a week or two doing lower tier stuff before stepping into these ops.
1/ Matrix cubes suck compared to PvE & PvP endgame relics, any clever person wouldn't be stacking a mainstat in any of their relics.

2/ You should never take into account the person is fully buffed and stimmed before asking for a inv. I usually pop my stim and buff in the instance to make sure they aren't wasted.

3/ 6-9% skill tree buff is not available for all classes.

4/ You still fail to forget people who stack secondary stats rather than main, my sent who's 2/5 dread guard rest campaign sits at around 1900 strength and around 1000 power, it I removed the 12 might augments and replaced them with power I'd only have 1700 strength but 1200 power. By your main stat rule that would be too weak despite my character being far over-geared for a story mode.

Quote:
Throw in a few augments, get 35 to 50 BH comms (for sorc example, pick up the BH implant or boots), maybe 120 daily comms for a rakata implant (probably better off just saving up for 300 honestly though), maybe run Lost Island for the rakata chest, get yourself some modifiable belt and bracers, and you are well past this mark.
I am accounting for augments and earpiece, my dreadguard/campaign sent is only over your 1800 rule because I stack strength augments so I don't have to stack extra crit in my gear where power could go. Most my gear is optimized for power rather than mainstat.

Quote:
I'm seeing a lot of comments about 1800 being rakata+, I'm just not seeing this. For sorc (again, I realize each class is different), you can hit over 1900 with full rakata, stim and class buff. This doesn't even include augmenting one single piece of gear. WIth my least geared 50, my juggernaut, I have a mix of BH/rakata (power heavy) and I am at 2000+ strength (a few pieces are augmented).
Because you're not taking account on secondary stat optimizations, plus you're adding a stim on top before you enter the op, without a stim your sorc would only be touching 1800 in rakata which most rakata have the main stat heavy 25a mods in. If you're asking people through chat unless they just come from an op and still have a stim running then they are not going to pop one just to check their main stat.

Quote:
We could easily carry a couple of under geared people through this as most of us are over geared for SM EC/TFB. Maybe we are setting our standards a little high. I don't want to be a snob or elitist about it, but people should be running at least SM EV/KP and some HM EV/KP. Yeah, I know EC and TFB drop rakata, but I think that was more intended to fill in the gaps from stuff you didn't get from HM EV/KP.
TFB is balanced for players in columi 136 rated gear, by requesting people have at least 1800 main stat all you are doing is bringing overgeared players for an easy ride.

Also just FYI, here's a quick columi build I made on ask mr robot, I even included a stim yet it sit's below 1700 despite being in full columi and ready for the content, full columi without the stim is around 1500 strength not the 1800 you picked out of your head.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...4-5721e8ae4079
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
02.05.2013 , 02:24 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by soowonlee View Post
Assuming a finite stat pool, you face a zero sum situation with respect to the three secondary defensive statistics. Thus, you stack defense at the expense of stacking either shield or absorb.

The problem with this in the vanguard class is that you waste talents in your skill tree that buff your shield and absorb by adding a percentage of the total. Here are the talents:

Shield Cycler: 2% bonus to shield chance
Ceramic Plating: 4% bonus to absorb
Power Screen: 8% bonus to absorb when fully stacked
Counterattack: 6% bonus to shield chance

Having a low shield chance or absorb means having lower bonuses. This is undeniable regardless of what you may have experienced or what healers may have told you.
I don't think those talents work the way you think they do. They add to your character sheet number, they don't multiply the stats you get from gear.
Smugglin

Viridiana's Avatar


Viridiana
02.05.2013 , 02:55 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
1/ Matrix cubes suck compared to PvE & PvP endgame relics, any clever person wouldn't be stacking a mainstat in any of their relics.

2/ You should never take into account the person is fully buffed and stimmed before asking for a inv. I usually pop my stim and buff in the instance to make sure they aren't wasted.

3/ 6-9% skill tree buff is not available for all classes.

4/ You still fail to forget people who stack secondary stats rather than main, my sent who's 2/5 dread guard rest campaign sits at around 1900 strength and around 1000 power, it I removed the 12 might augments and replaced them with power I'd only have 1700 strength but 1200 power. By your main stat rule that would be too weak despite my character being far over-geared for a story mode.



I am accounting for augments and earpiece, my dreadguard/campaign sent is only over your 1800 rule because I stack strength augments so I don't have to stack extra crit in my gear where power could go. Most my gear is optimized for power rather than mainstat.



Because you're not taking account on secondary stat optimizations, plus you're adding a stim on top before you enter the op, without a stim your sorc would only be touching 1800 in rakata which most rakata have the main stat heavy 25a mods in. If you're asking people through chat unless they just come from an op and still have a stim running then they are not going to pop one just to check their main stat.



TFB is balanced for players in columi 136 rated gear, by requesting people have at least 1800 main stat all you are doing is bringing overgeared players for an easy ride.

Also just FYI, here's a quick columi build I made on ask mr robot, I even included a stim yet it sit's below 1700 despite being in full columi and ready for the content, full columi without the stim is around 1500 strength not the 1800 you picked out of your head.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...4-5721e8ae4079
I don't see how your main stat can be so low while stacking power, my DPS PT has 2450 aim and 700 power, so even if I dropped the aim augs on each of my pieces of gear and put power in to push me towards 900-1000 power I would only drop to 2200 aim or so, and i'm in mostly BH, so overgeared for the 1800 Main Stat sure, but i'm assuming with your DG/campaign pieces that you aren't in a Columi/Rakata mix anymore.

My buddies Maurader is in Campaign/Rakata and he has 2150 Str and 1000 power, so either i'm missing something or your stats are off by what your gear is at.

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.05.2013 , 03:09 PM | #29
Yeah, my Sentinel isn't that well geared and she is pulling 2149 with buff and stim and 1919 without.

I also have
Power: 753
Crit: 309
Surge: 285
accuracy: 285

So I went more balanced. Mainly bh and campaign, but have some 63 armor and hilt that I bought. Yeah she cheated on gear, but I have been in everything, but usually I am on my main healer and not on my fun dps. However, I want to have her ready for any content should they have enough healers and not enough dps.

Lugosi's Avatar


Lugosi
02.05.2013 , 05:42 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
1/ Matrix cubes suck compared to PvE & PvP endgame relics, any clever person wouldn't be stacking a mainstat in any of their relics.
Yes, I realize the matrix cube is not bis. For dps bis is dreadguard proc and dreadguard power clicky (PvP relic is longer bis). That's also 600 daily comms, or roughly 5 mil credits. If you have the availability of those relics and not enough time or money to prioritize your stats better, you probably aren't planning on running ops anyway. I was just using the matrix cube as example how easy decent enough gear can be obtained.


Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
2/ You should never take into account the person is fully buffed and stimmed before asking for a inv. I usually pop my stim and buff in the instance to make sure they aren't wasted.
Why? Because (104+x)(0.05))+(x) takes to much time? Or saying "Hey, I have 1650/1700 unbuffed, can I go?". What does it matter either way how one chooses to come to a final value?


Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
3/ 6-9% skill tree buff is not available for all classes.
True


Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
4/ You still fail to forget people who stack secondary stats rather than main, my sent who's 2/5 dread guard rest campaign sits at around 1900 strength and around 1000 power, it I removed the 12 might augments and replaced them with power I'd only have 1700 strength but 1200 power. By your main stat rule that would be too weak despite my character being far over-geared for a story mode.
Hmm... like I said I have 2000+ on a rakata/BH juggernaut without being fully augmented (buffed of course) and I have been choosing marauder gear from the vendor to swap the modifications. So your telling me that I am an entire tier below you in gear and not fully augmented and have higher strength than you? What's your endurance at?


Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
I am accounting for augments and earpiece, my dreadguard/campaign sent is only over your 1800 rule because I stack strength augments so I don't have to stack extra crit in my gear where power could go. Most my gear is optimized for power rather than mainstat.
Hmm, not the way I would go, but to each their own I guess. I've had this power vs. mainstat debate before, don't really feel like getting into it here, but basically you are looking at 0.23 (mainstat) vs 0.24 (power) bonus difference and mainstat gives a crit bonus on a separate diminishing return. But I digress, not trying to derail my own thread. We will just call it even. I do agree with power>crit rate after dr's start to hit in most cases though, that's fairly obvious.


Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
Because you're not taking account on secondary stat optimizations, plus you're adding a stim on top before you enter the op, without a stim your sorc would only be touching 1800 in rakata which most rakata have the main stat heavy 25a mods in. If you're asking people through chat unless they just come from an op and still have a stim running then they are not going to pop one just to check their main stat.
Maybe sorc was a bad example then I guess. Not going to spend the time doing it for another class when I know just about every class can break 1900 with a stim and rakata/BH mix.


Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
TFB is balanced for players in columi 136 rated gear, by requesting people have at least 1800 main stat all you are doing is bringing overgeared players for an easy ride.
Yet the last boss drops gear 2 tiers higher. I know it's doable, but has it officially been stated as the case? EV HM is rated for columi too correct? Is EV HM and TFB SM the same difficulty? And just out of curiosity, have you personally ever ran TFB SM with a full group wearing nothing higher than columi?
Bargain not with the darkness, in time it will take us all.
Arms of the Abyss
Ilith - Akhroma - Molybdenum