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The "Other" pay to win


Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
02.04.2013 , 08:10 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
"Schem stealing"?
So you think that it's "fair" to design the game in a way that allows someone to RE a schematic, but no one else can until they've gone through the same op week after week after week with no success, giving you a monopoly strangle-hold on the market for months?

Granted, that's pretty much exactly how copyright laws and patents work. But this isn't a court of law or a session of Congress. It's a game. And as such, a monopoly strangle-hold would be severely game-unbalancing.
One or two people who rake in hundreds of millions of credits in profits simply by the luck of a mouse click, only to get bored and quit the game doesn't sound like much fun.
Whoah, when did I say all that?

You're reading way too much into me understanding that crafters (I am not one) might be a little sore about someone buying their item, learning the schem and then undercutting them on the market. I didn't suggest actually -doing- anything about it, either on the part of the crafters or on the part of Bioware.

I'm for whatever creates a robust market because working the economy is as viable a way to play the game as raiding/pvp/whatever.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.04.2013 , 08:37 PM | #42
This sort of thing has been happening ever since BH comms were added to the group finder.

Quite a while back, I was doing a gear run on HM EV for some new guildies. One player (a shadow dps in black hole gear) was unable to kill his Infernal Council member. In fact, when the timer ran out his target was still at 40% health.

While wearing level 61 gear. O.o

The other shadow dps in that same raid, wearing mostly Columi gear, was able to successfully defeat her target with time to spare.

Anyone can shortcut the path to obtain gear. In fact, the Cartel Market has made it even easier. Just take a look at how many people sell Cartel Packs directly, turning real-world dollars into credits they can use to buy crafted gear.

But honestly, this sort of stuff doesn't really bother me personally. It is very very easy to identify the skilled players vs the unskilled ones. The skilled ones are invited to TfB/EC. The unskilled ones aren't.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
02.05.2013 , 02:01 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Somanliuus View Post
Or am I horribly wrong?
Yes, you are.

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
02.05.2013 , 02:12 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
but people who never set foot in the instant have half the res ....... how is that fair ....
It isn't.

BiS Schematics are a reward for doing well in Operations. They're not supposed to be available for people with lots of cash irl. But that's the way the world works, he who has the dough makes the rules.
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slafko's Avatar


slafko
02.05.2013 , 02:17 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Ruskaeth View Post
How I read OP's post was like this:
"Everyone can grind materials to get BiS 63 quite fast, but it does not give them necessary skills for EC NiM."
I also picked a subtle hint about him wanting people to progress operations to actually learn how to play.

Once again: skill > gear.
I find this rather funny in a gear-based game such as this one.

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
02.05.2013 , 02:42 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
I find this rather funny in a gear-based game such as this one.
You done NiM EC? You can have full 63 mini-maxed but if you suck you'll wipe and wipe and wipe on just the first boss alone.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.05.2013 , 03:17 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
I find this rather funny in a gear-based game such as this one.
I've seen 4 people in Tionese gear steamroll HMLI and 4 others in Black Hole gear fail on LR-5 consistently.

How is that not a perfect example of skill > gear?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.05.2013 , 03:48 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I've seen 4 people in Tionese gear steamroll HMLI and 4 others in Black Hole gear fail on LR-5 consistently.

How is that not a perfect example of skill > gear?
There's a difference between "skill > gear" and "skill and gear are of varying comparative import across various fields of play being assumed to be present in roughly equal measure for content with an applicable reward". You're specifically pointing out one of the more egregious examples of a place where skill is of absolute primal import: if you can't handle the mechanics of HM LI, you're not going to clear it no matter how good your gear is. However, "skill > gear" is no more true than "gear > skill" since there are explicit times where, no matter how skilled you are, you're just not gonna be able to handle it in crappy gear: you can't clear NiM EC or HM TfB in an ops groups filled to the brim with unoptimized Tionese geared characters since you can't beat the enrage timers, the incoming damage would be too high, and the healers wouldn't be able to keep up.

TOR is not a game where gear or skill are arbitrarily intended to take absolute precedence over the other as a measure of whether you'll be successful or not. They're intended to work in sync. Nominally, your gear and your skill should be roughly commensurate (which is probably one of the problems that the OP believes should happen), but it doesn't always happen. Some of the best players will be handicapped by running with friends that just can't pull their weight and some of the worst will be blessed by highly skilled guildies that will carry them through anything and everything.

*However*, one thing to note about this is that gear can be fixed while it's quite difficult to "fix" skill problems, which is one reason why the "skill > gear" argument has some degree of merit: in a game where gear is so easy to acquire, especially since, for many players that play regularly, they're quite easily capable of having their gear outstrip their own skills, if you're looking for someone to recruit, gear matters less than the skill of the person because it's so easy to simply get that person gear (in a single night of running, I've seen fresh guildies go from Tionese/recruit starting gear to full or near-full Black Hole/Camp with Rakata filling out the rest without spending a credit).

Basically, the game requires both skill *and* gear to succeed at the top tier of content. The gear itself is almost laughably easy to get nowadays, so it's not a major concern. The skill, however, is harder to get (though sometimes I wonder how people can *not* understand simple concepts like "don't stand in the fire", "spread out", and "interrupt" or even how they can get to level 50, spend 2 months playing said class at 50, and *still* not have the slightest notion that using Tk Throw as a DPS Shadow is a terrible idea) and, as such, is generally held in higher esteem, not by innate importance based upon game design, as many people try to claim, but by its general rarity.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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slafko's Avatar


slafko
02.05.2013 , 04:30 AM | #49
One comment, three headshots. That's skill right there.


The game is laughably easy 95% of the time. It's harder in the last 5% only becase of lower enrage timers and heavier hits. Rinse and repeat until you get the mechanic down, gg. Skill requirement (in a game that emphasises gear, has medpacks and other buffs available at any point in time) is moderate at best.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
02.05.2013 , 10:03 AM | #50
@OP: I agree with you. I think BW will make sure that you cannot RE someone else's crafted gear. The problem wasn't so much that you can RE mods and stuff (that's what it's there for and taking it away will make those crafting professions useless). The problem was that you could RE someone else's gear so people were just swapping recipes making all mods, enh, etc. available within the first couple weeks.

I'm all for having to earn the gear by actually doing endgame stuff such as weeklys and operations to get said gear, but how will you justify that to crafters if they cannot craft those mods?

Also, if BW hadn't allowed all of this it would have taken a very, very, very long time for my maruader to be BiS as basically the 56 Str / 44 Power mod comes from one piece of gear - the belt. That means I would have had to have farmed 9 belts just to get BiS. And I'm competing against others for the same thing?

That's not going to fly with me. Until BW comes up with a way to reforge like WoW or finally makes their gear BiS as is, I'm not going to waste time farming 9 of the same item. If that happens in the next operation where I can't get my BiS mods crafted and they still can't itemize, I probably will quit.