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Was dual spec never added?


Gereorth's Avatar


Gereorth
01.31.2013 , 04:55 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by SentinelDranoel View Post
Close this, it will not produce anything useful.
The only thing it will produce is facts of what is, what it not is and lot's of biased opinions.
I got the stuff, if you got the credits. If not, beat it kid!

psandak's Avatar


psandak
01.31.2013 , 05:06 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir View Post
I'll tell you why.. because just copy pasting WoW, RIFT or whatever other's Code into TOR will simply not work.

Just because the concept is readilly available, doesn't mean the technology is. Each game has their own challenges in making this work. What was given, was the quick, easy improvement to make a step forward in allowing respeccing to be easier. To make the system you and everyone else wants you need a lot of work. Especially if you want to make it as feature rich as some of the others. Let me explain by making a simple list of the main features they'll need to add to give you what you want:
- Functionality to change skill tree set up to a predetermined set
- Functionality to have action bar setups change with each spec, including keybinds if applicable
- Functionality to be able to make a predetermined set of gear you can equip on the spot (probably with also remembering Unfiy Color set up)
- Functionality to change and maintain each predetermined set of skill trees, action bars and gear sets
- New interface elements and menus to support all these new functionalities.

This is just off the top of my head to make an industry standard Dual Spec system you expect from them. This is a lot of extra Coding work they need to do to make that work and deliver it as bug free as possible.

What they did now was:
- Make the respec system that was already in game available through more means than one NPC in each faction's fleet.

You may call it half-assed. I call it the quick 'fix'. It didn't need any new interface elements, it didn't need any new systems or a lot of Testing effort to deliver it as bug free as possible. It was a step forward, but not the be-all end-all of this problem.

The issue here is, and the line I quoted made that perfectly clear, that you have no idea how much effort it takes to make a good Dual spec system into the game. I am sure their UI guys are working on it and have it on their to-do list. But first they worked on other aspects like being able to change your UI setup, or improving performance of the UI.

But naw.. it is an easy thing they can just pull off the shelf and plug it in and they are just lazy for not adding it. That is the only possible explanation.
+1

Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
I don't think it is necessarily a refusal on their part in the 'we don't want our game to be as well designed and feature rich as other games' vain, but rather they just don't have or aren't willing to get the talent or the time or the money required to deliver a superior product.
As someone else said, with all the firings and the implementation of F2P a lot of what was promised pre-F2P goes out the window....for now. EA now has some data regarding the viability of the game in the long term since F2P. While I do not expect EA to immediately re-hire all the staff they let go, I'd be willing to bet that they do put some additional resources into the development team. And maybe in six to nine months we start seeing more "quality of life" improvements like the ability to save skill tree and key bind sets (probably available via legacy for either credits or cartel coins).

Quote: Originally Posted by jgelling View Post
You must not have been in WoW for a long time - you click a button on your profile to switch Primary Spec and Secondary Spec. That's it - talents changed, glyphs changed, keybinds changed automagically. There's another button to switch between different gear sets automagically as well. It's been like that for years.
What you are forgetting is that it took them years to implement it in the first place. It was not even ready when the expansion it was supposed to be in launched...it came out five months later. And the equipment manager was not even part of it. THAT feature came out a year later (although there were add-ons that could do that already).

The last comment I will make on this is that Blizzard (makers of WoW) came out and stated that they did not like what dual spec did to WoW; that if they could repeal the feature they probably would, but they know they cannot. The fact that other MMO developers made the same "mistake" does not make it a good and right feature.

J__H's Avatar


J__H
01.31.2013 , 08:05 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir View Post
I'll tell you why.. because just copy pasting WoW, RIFT or whatever other's Code into TOR will simply not work.

Just because the concept is readilly available, doesn't mean the technology is. Each game has their own challenges in making this work. What was given, was the quick, easy improvement to make a step forward in allowing respeccing to be easier. To make the system you and everyone else wants you need a lot of work. Especially if you want to make it as feature rich as some of the others. Let me explain by making a simple list of the main features they'll need to add to give you what you want:
- Functionality to change skill tree set up to a predetermined set
- Functionality to have action bar setups change with each spec, including keybinds if applicable
- Functionality to be able to make a predetermined set of gear you can equip on the spot (probably with also remembering Unfiy Color set up)
- Functionality to change and maintain each predetermined set of skill trees, action bars and gear sets
- New interface elements and menus to support all these new functionalities.

This is just off the top of my head to make an industry standard Dual Spec system you expect from them. This is a lot of extra Coding work they need to do to make that work and deliver it as bug free as possible.

What they did now was:
- Make the respec system that was already in game available through more means than one NPC in each faction's fleet.

You may call it half-assed. I call it the quick 'fix'. It didn't need any new interface elements, it didn't need any new systems or a lot of Testing effort to deliver it as bug free as possible. It was a step forward, but not the be-all end-all of this problem.

The issue here is, and the line I quoted made that perfectly clear, that you have no idea how much effort it takes to make a good Dual spec system into the game. I am sure their UI guys are working on it and have it on their to-do list. But first they worked on other aspects like being able to change your UI setup, or improving performance of the UI.

But naw.. it is an easy thing they can just pull off the shelf and plug it in and they are just lazy for not adding it. That is the only possible explanation.
No matter how hard it is, by this time they could have implemented it by now. I will be very surprised if this is added within the next 2 years. BW has proved they do not deliver on a lot of promises.

I'm very reluctant to believe we will receive a new more convenient system when we already have one in place, when other common MMO features that are wanted by a large population of the community eg. paid transfers, still aren't even in the game at all.

I would very much rather them have taken awhile longer and actually implemented a better system rather than place a patch over it then put it aside forever.
Body, Mind, and Soul


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DirgeZombie's Avatar


DirgeZombie
01.31.2013 , 08:57 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by J__H View Post
No matter how hard it is, by this time they could have implemented it by now. I will be very surprised if this is added within the next 2 years. BW has proved they do not deliver on a lot of promises.

I'm very reluctant to believe we will receive a new more convenient system when we already have one in place, when other common MMO features that are wanted by a large population of the community eg. paid transfers, still aren't even in the game at all.

I would very much rather them have taken awhile longer and actually implemented a better system rather than place a patch over it then put it aside forever.
And I'm happy with the system as is. I would much rather they did what they did instead of having nothing at all for the next 2 years. Not that I think your projected time or any of your statements are based on any facts of any kind. I'm just using your arbitrary number for the sake of argument.

Knockerz's Avatar


Knockerz
01.31.2013 , 09:56 PM | #55
You get free respects on the fleet. It's actually better than dual spec I think. You can try as many different specs as you want so long as your on fleet.
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc

Xenaul's Avatar


Xenaul
01.31.2013 , 10:01 PM | #56
1) OP question was completely reasonable
2) Answer to OP questions is "No"
3) They did not introduced any sort of "alternative" system that is "better" and to say that they did is disingenuous.
4) Subscribers, after hefty initial investment can buy on per character basis ability to reset talents. Reset itself is free to subscribers only.
5) What is needed to make it passable is ability to store quickbars layouts the same ways the UI interface layouts already stored. Reason why it is not done is because UI interface layouts are stored client side in XML files but quickbar assignments are actually stored server side.
6) It's a quality of life improvement that is expected of modern MMORPG. It will conceivably also help with healer and tank shortage for group finder flashpoints and such. There is no logical reason to argue against it.

SnoggyMack's Avatar


SnoggyMack
01.31.2013 , 10:43 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenaul View Post
1) OP question was completely reasonable
2) Answer to OP questions is "No"
The end. Really. The rest is just perpetuating a worthless argument about a feature that may someday be implemented, but the OP won't find out about it until they once again come back to the game they keep quitting to troll the forums some more.
Snoggy Mack
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My quote: "All the other kids with the pumped up Sith, you better run, better run, faster than my blaster"

mtsr's Avatar


mtsr
02.01.2013 , 01:32 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by jgelling View Post
Well yeah, which is what a dual spec does - saves your build, saves your bindings and quickbars. Redoing all that manually every time you want to switch from DPS to heal and back is silly.
yesh, I concur.
From the KOTORS *8 years exp in mmo's

EATtheDEAD's Avatar


EATtheDEAD
02.01.2013 , 01:48 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by ImperialSun View Post
I dont think there should be any confusion as to what constitutes dual spec. We should all know what it means, what i would assert however is that dual spec not being present in this game does equal something that needs 'fixing'. Dual spec is not a cornerstone feature of any and all successful MMORPGs despite what the WoW players may say.

Besides, how many times a week do you respec? How long does it take, maybe 60 seconds to re tick the required skill boxes and drag some gear around...how much time do you think dual spec is actually going to save you? Not very much by the sound of it

The fact we are a year in and the game has not collapsed without dual spec says a lot for how fundamental this feature really is imo.

Driz
You aren't understanding the reason behind wanting it in the game. It's when you are somewhere you can't respect like in a warzone. And maybe the spec you are using isn't really working and you know if you had an opposite spec you would do better for your team or could heal or switch from heals to damage or blah blah blah.

Then after you exit combat you could switch your spec and get back into the mix. Or the same thing for in the middle of a flashpoint/operation.

Or way out in the middle of a planet doing quests.

It is just a quality of life addition.

And I change my specs a couple times a week. Sometimes a day.
THERE WON'T BE A HEART LEFT BEATING!
-Sith Warrior's only phrase

Devlonir's Avatar


Devlonir
02.01.2013 , 02:19 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by J__H View Post
No matter how hard it is, by this time they could have implemented it by now. I will be very surprised if this is added within the next 2 years. BW has proved they do not deliver on a lot of promises.

I'm very reluctant to believe we will receive a new more convenient system when we already have one in place, when other common MMO features that are wanted by a large population of the community eg. paid transfers, still aren't even in the game at all.

I would very much rather them have taken awhile longer and actually implemented a better system rather than place a patch over it then put it aside forever.
To be honest, since F2P took most of the UI development time (as F2P and the Cartel Store affect every part of the current UI) from around August to when F2P was launched in November, including a month or two of fixing Cartel Market interface issues, not one new UI development has come out. Not even the earlier mentioned 'improvements to the interface editor' and other things like UI performance, chat bubbles, and the bug with Unify Color not working correctly that was only recently fixed.

Knowing development teams and how these things work, they have probably started focusing more effort on Quality of Life improvements again since around the holiday season.. maybe after 1.6 hit Live servers. So if Dual Spec in the works, the teams working on it would not be available long to work on this. Meaning that, at best, now they are working on their first internal prototypes developed on the first designs. Considering nothing specific has been said yet, chances are it is not beyond that stage if it is being developed at all.

Thing is, if they took longer for the better solution, we would still have the same old system of only doing it on fleet because F2P development would still have been in there taking away all UI developers. Not to mention 6 months is probably not enough to develop this regardless. As others pointed out as well, WoW's dual spec was delivered almost half a year later than the expansion it should have been a part of, and it was not bug free until 6 months after that. Only then, an equipment manager was added as well. And who knows how long it took them to build it from design to delivery. But something that is 6 months delayed probably didn't have an initial development time planned of a few months. And at the time, WoW had a huge development team as it was in it's prime.

I'm glad we have the quick solution now. I realise this is all they could deliver for now. But I also look forward to seeing the better system put into the game. I have a very small hope improvements in respeccing are part of the 'new systems' that has been hinted at in Rise of the Hutt Cartel announcements. But I honestly don't expect it to be. Only realistic timeline I see would be this time next year, maybe before the holiday season 2013.
"Cows go 'Moo', Dogs go 'Woof', MMO Players go 'The PVP is unbalanced!" - Yahthzee
"I'm starting to get the feeling that BW and their MMO are not the dysfunctional ones." - Rafaman