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clone wars S05E015


Darth__Carnal's Avatar


Darth__Carnal
01.28.2013 , 10:26 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
Not if the Sith/Jedi actually went all out and used Force powers as well - with the intention of killing the Mandalorian

Vizsla used all the tricks in his arsenal and was beaten by Sith/Jedi combat training alone......

As least this goes someway to dispel the notion that Sith/Jedi are useless without force powers and the actual physical combat training is pretty hardcore....
This is difficult to gauge as their plenty of Force powers and mental techniques to ignore pain, sustain yourself past the limits of your endurance, and hit harder then you normally would be able too. In Episode 1, Maul was knocked off a platform by QuiGon Jinn and under normal circumstances would of probably broke his back. However, being trained in the ways of the Force, Maul was able to easily shrug off the pain and absorb the impact with the Force.

Also Maul is a Sith, no matter what you think, he is going to pull out every trick he knows also while giving the illusion that he is fighting fairly.
☾▓║]!▀!▀!▀!▀!▀!▀║▩▓[██████████▓▒░Surrender to Temptation░▒▓███████████)

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
01.28.2013 , 11:59 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth__Carnal View Post
This is difficult to gauge as their plenty of Force powers and mental techniques to ignore pain, sustain yourself past the limits of your endurance, and hit harder then you normally would be able too. In Episode 1, Maul was knocked off a platform by QuiGon Jinn and under normal circumstances would of probably broke his back. However, being trained in the ways of the Force, Maul was able to easily shrug off the pain and absorb the impact with the Force.

Also Maul is a Sith, no matter what you think, he is going to pull out every trick he knows also while giving the illusion that he is fighting fairly.
Ok to be fair - there are different degrees of ability between individual Jedi and Sith so some are better than others and you will some poor ones amongst all that.

But in this case Maul was definitely holding back from using the force against Viszla when he just used physical skills when he could have easily used telekinetics - and if Maul can catch fully trained Jedi (who have the force)with his powers then i am pretty sure he would use them against Viszla if he really wanted too

he was definitely not using every trick in his arsenal - as he never needed to to beat Viszla
Under normal circimstances when there was no special challenge - then sure he would have used them (although Maul does have a tendency to toy with his opponents)
He challenged this honourable combat to gain the loyalty of Viszla's own Death Watch troops - he had to prove that he was the better trained warrior as that is something that the Mandalorians respect - Mandalorians would possibly see force powers as a shortcut to compensate for a lack of true warrior ability - and not using them (when he could have) while Viszla used all his tricks would prove that he was superior to them.....the big picture of this fight was less about killing Viszla and more about gaining the loyalty of Deathwatch. If Viszla was a willing puppet - Maul may well have left him alive........
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.28.2013 , 12:24 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
Ok to be fair - there are different degrees of ability between individual Jedi and Sith so some are better than others and you will some poor ones amongst all that.

But in this case Maul was definitely holding back from using the force against Viszla when he just used physical skills when he could have easily used telekinetics - and if Maul can catch fully trained Jedi (who have the force)with his powers then i am pretty sure he would use them against Viszla if he really wanted too

he was definitely not using every trick in his arsenal - as he never needed to to beat Viszla
Under normal circimstances when there was no special challenge - then sure he would have used them (although Maul does have a tendency to toy with his opponents)
He challenged this honourable combat to gain the loyalty of Viszla's own Death Watch troops - he had to prove that he was the better trained warrior as that is something that the Mandalorians respect - Mandalorians would possibly see force powers as a shortcut to compensate for a lack of true warrior ability - and not using them (when he could have) while Viszla used all his tricks would prove that he was superior to them.....the big picture of this fight was less about killing Viszla and more about gaining the loyalty of Deathwatch. If Viszla was a willing puppet - Maul may well have left him alive........
Much like Ulic fighting MTI on Mandalorian terms, and he still won.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

WooliestWorm's Avatar


WooliestWorm
01.28.2013 , 12:31 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth__Carnal View Post
This is difficult to gauge as their plenty of Force powers and mental techniques to ignore pain, sustain yourself past the limits of your endurance, and hit harder then you normally would be able too. In Episode 1, Maul was knocked off a platform by QuiGon Jinn and under normal circumstances would of probably broke his back. However, being trained in the ways of the Force, Maul was able to easily shrug off the pain and absorb the impact with the Force.

Also Maul is a Sith, no matter what you think, he is going to pull out every trick he knows also while giving the illusion that he is fighting fairly.
There's also the fact that the force can be used as something like a sixth sense, increasing awareness of your surroundings and helping to anticipate the next attack (literally the first thing Obi-wan teaches Luke about the force).

Darth__Carnal's Avatar


Darth__Carnal
01.29.2013 , 02:42 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
Ok to be fair - there are different degrees of ability between individual Jedi and Sith so some are better than others and you will some poor ones amongst all that.

But in this case Maul was definitely holding back from using the force against Viszla when he just used physical skills when he could have easily used telekinetics - and if Maul can catch fully trained Jedi (who have the force)with his powers then i am pretty sure he would use them against Viszla if he really wanted too

he was definitely not using every trick in his arsenal - as he never needed to to beat Viszla
Under normal circimstances when there was no special challenge - then sure he would have used them (although Maul does have a tendency to toy with his opponents)
He challenged this honourable combat to gain the loyalty of Viszla's own Death Watch troops - he had to prove that he was the better trained warrior as that is something that the Mandalorians respect - Mandalorians would possibly see force powers as a shortcut to compensate for a lack of true warrior ability - and not using them (when he could have) while Viszla used all his tricks would prove that he was superior to them.....the big picture of this fight was less about killing Viszla and more about gaining the loyalty of Deathwatch. If Viszla was a willing puppet - Maul may well have left him alive........
You bring up great points, but every time Maul blocked a incoming blaster bolt with his lightsaber, ducked or pivoted out of the way of an attack, he was relying on the Force. In addition, every time he used Force Jump or was able to shrug off an explosion during the fight he was obviously calling on the Force.

So while Maul didn't use Telekinesis, he was certainly using the Force. He was also using the Force to a considerable degree that I would call it cheating. He also needed to rely on it. If he didn't use it he probably would of been killed out right.

Does this mean Maul is weak ? No.

However, Maul certainly did not win with just melee prowess. In a true, non force using melee battle, Pre Vizsla would of more then likely won, and won quickly.
☾▓║]!▀!▀!▀!▀!▀!▀║▩▓[██████████▓▒░Surrender to Temptation░▒▓███████████)

SNCommand's Avatar


SNCommand
01.29.2013 , 05:25 PM | #26
Maul didn't use that many force powers against Obi Wan and Qui Gon Jin in Episode 1 either, besides opening the blast doors by throwing a explosive barrel at the control panel I don't think he used any obvious ones
Quote: Originally Posted by Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
Personally I would slap Georges hands away from the editing desk, give him a colouring book and then remake the entire prequel trilogy so that Darth Vader uses the force to win breakdance competitions and chokes to death anyone who utters the word midichlorians.

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
01.29.2013 , 08:34 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth__Carnal View Post
You bring up great points, but every time Maul blocked a incoming blaster bolt with his lightsaber, ducked or pivoted out of the way of an attack, he was relying on the Force. In addition, every time he used Force Jump or was able to shrug off an explosion during the fight he was obviously calling on the Force.

So while Maul didn't use Telekinesis, he was certainly using the Force. He was also using the Force to a considerable degree that I would call it cheating. He also needed to rely on it. If he didn't use it he probably would of been killed out right.

Does this mean Maul is weak ? No.

However, Maul certainly did not win with just melee prowess. In a true, non force using melee battle, Pre Vizsla would of more then likely won, and won quickly.
I don't see how you can make that extrapolation that Vizsla would beat Maul easily without the force in a true melee battle this would mean just Visla with the Dark Saber and No Mandalorian armour and gadgets - as Visza was using them a lot the break the flow of the hand to hand - Vizsla got kicked to the floor in the First exchange and then started using his jetpack, blaster and other gadgets from then.......

Sure Maul does have force enhanced reflexes - but to what degree would he need them against Viszla using NO gadgets? He is still a master of Saber technique and Teras Kasi - Maul is also certainly more naturally agile and flexible than Visla - and certainly showed better and more versatile melee technique

In the end Maul after being disarmed was confident enough to take on Viszla unarmed (could have easily called his saber back to him but chose not to) and outmanouvered him with a lock, disarmed him/slammed him on the floor and after that Viszla had no fight left and pretty much accepted his defeat........
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
01.29.2013 , 08:42 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by SNCommand View Post
Maul didn't use that many force powers against Obi Wan and Qui Gon Jin in Episode 1 either, besides opening the blast doors by throwing a explosive barrel at the control panel I don't think he used any obvious ones
if you think about it nobody in the films really used that much force powers and certainly not in abundance....
the Clone Wars are a different medium however and force powers are used a lot more in this series than in the films and this definitely includes Maul as well - as in previous weeks you have seen him use force choke/grip and force push quite a lot - certainly enough to indicate that if he would have used them against Viszla if he chose to go down that route - he certainly had opportunities to do so in that fight.....
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.30.2013 , 11:21 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth__Carnal View Post
However, Maul certainly did not win with just melee prowess. In a true, non force using melee battle, Pre Vizsla would of more then likely won, and won quickly.
But if Maul didn't have the Force, he wouldn't be a Sith... so Pre Vizla's triumph over him would be meaningless. He would just be some guy trained to wield a lightsaber. What I mean to say is Maul's prowess in the Force is part of who he is, and part of his strength. It's not a weapon, or external thing, its part of him. So taking away the Force would be taking away Maul. If anything the Force is part of his melee prowess.

Still this could partly be due to Maul's unfamiliarity with a single-bladed lightsaber, however we should also note concerning Force powers that Maul favoured 'pure, physical victory' which could be the real reason why he didn't apply Force choke, push etc.

However I still believe saying Maul would have lost without Force powers is counter-intuitive, that's putting Maul at a distinct disadvantage, and giving Vizla and advantage, before the fight has already begun. Its not a level playing field. The only way to balance this would be to take away all Vizla's weaponry, gadgets and armour, except his darksaber. And if Pre Vizla had been stripped of his weapons and armour, while Maul kept the Force, Maul would have won, and won quickly. Do you see my point?

However if Maul and Vizla fought without the Force, without extra weapons/gadgets, and without armour. Just saber to saber, Vizla would have lost. Without that jetpack he's toast.