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Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.28.2013 , 12:14 AM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Bird_of_Thunder View Post
how have i missed all this! Anways, rally my Kun supporters! This fight isn't over yet!


Duel: Kun could defeat both Traya and Xizor in a one-on-one, but I'm having doubts that either would fight him.

Troops: Kun has the support of the Massassi, the Krath and their wardroids, his 20 exceptionally skilled fallen Jedi disciples, and the Mandos with their Basilisk wardroids. Traya has an army of Sith assassins, and Xizor has an army of mercs and anything else he can get with credits. I'm gonna have to give this one to Kun for troop diversity and adaptibility, although Xizor would be a great match with his credits, and Traya's assassins must be good at what they do. However, assassins aren't really soldiers and the mercs could be bought out

Fleet: The Tetan Navy is strong, and Kun has Basilisk wardroids and Chaos Fighters. Traya's flagship, the Ravager, is strong and so is the rest of her fleet, while Xizor would just stay on Coruscant. If it was a random encounter and not an ambush, this would be a close draw.

Allies: Ulic, Sion, and Guri are all skilled and capable fighters. Ulic matched Kun's dueling skills, Sion was practically immortal, and Guri could take on Luke Skywalker. If the three got into a fight, it would be a pretty good one. Sion once served under Exar Kun, so it could be possible for Ulic to convince Sion to join them for more poser and together they would defeat Guri. Also, Ulic and Guri could see that Sion is practically immortal and join to start pounding on him. When they've been able to at least incapacitate him, the two would then duel it out. I'd give this one to Ulic, simply because he matched Exar Kun, the greatest duelist of his time, in saber combat.


Theres my contribution. C'mon, Team Exar Kun! We can still win this if we rally!
The duel bit, your right.

Troops yes, but Xizor could also purchase droids and the like from the Black Market he wouldn't be limited just to mercs and none of them would dare betray the Black Sun.

Fleet, in actuality looking at it. Traya's fleet is really piss poor, compared to what Kun has and what Xizor can outfit his own forces with.

Allies your right, however Guri couldn't take on Luke Skywalker when he was actually focused he quickly brought her down unarmed.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.28.2013 , 07:22 AM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Allies your right, however Guri couldn't take on Luke Skywalker when he was actually focused he quickly brought her down unarmed.
Guri did take on Luke around the time of Episode Six, when he was a full Jedi ready to face Vader. And she did defeat him. She knocked him to the ground and was in the process of striking a killing blow when Luke usede the Force to regain his lightsaber. And if by "defeat" you mean "knock to the ground", she did the exact same thing to Luke seconds before.

A battle between Guri and Luke w/ his lightsaber never happened. But she did defeat him unarmed.

However, that really doesn't matter all too much.

Looking back on Guri's accomplishments, I think she'll stay to guard Xizor. She's an amazing body guard, able to hold off Hero Characters (Hero Characters!) such as Luke, Leia, Lando, and Chewbacca. Wether it's by throwing large chairs, sticking her fingers through skulls, or going toe-to-toe with Luke Skywalker, Guri is one impressive bodyguard. Xizor may not be a combat expert, but with Guri at his side he doesn't need to be.
G0-T0 - "Pazaak bores me. I often suspect my opponent of cheating."
Guri - "I am what I am. I don't think there can be any salvation for me."
PROXY - "I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to kill you myself."
HK-01 - "The Great Droid Revolution will not fail."

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.28.2013 , 07:25 AM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Bird_of_Thunder View Post
...and the mercs could be bought out...
By who? Xizor?

See "unlimited resources" and "most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy"

Also, Black Sun forces were more than just Mercs. They had an entire army as well.
G0-T0 - "Pazaak bores me. I often suspect my opponent of cheating."
Guri - "I am what I am. I don't think there can be any salvation for me."
PROXY - "I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to kill you myself."
HK-01 - "The Great Droid Revolution will not fail."

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.28.2013 , 11:19 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Guri did take on Luke around the time of Episode Six, when he was a full Jedi ready to face Vader. And she did defeat him. She knocked him to the ground and was in the process of striking a killing blow when Luke usede the Force to regain his lightsaber. And if by "defeat" you mean "knock to the ground", she did the exact same thing to Luke seconds before.

A battle between Guri and Luke w/ his lightsaber never happened. But she did defeat him unarmed.

However, that really doesn't matter all too much.

Looking back on Guri's accomplishments, I think she'll stay to guard Xizor. She's an amazing body guard, able to hold off Hero Characters (Hero Characters!) such as Luke, Leia, Lando, and Chewbacca. Wether it's by throwing large chairs, sticking her fingers through skulls, or going toe-to-toe with Luke Skywalker, Guri is one impressive bodyguard. Xizor may not be a combat expert, but with Guri at his side he doesn't need to be.
Yes but Guri only brought him down that time, because he got distracted. Before that Luke used Force Speed to evade all of Guri's attacks. Take away the getting distracted part, him getting knocked down wouldn't have happened.

Quote:
Using the Force, Skywalker was able to evade Guri's attacks. Momentarily losing his concentration, Skywalker was knocked to the floor by Guri who moved to strike a killing blow. With the help of the Force he was able to move away from her blow and used a leg sweep to send her to the floor, igniting his lightsaber.
But your right Guri would more then likely just stay to guard Xizor.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

FoolsErrand's Avatar


FoolsErrand
01.28.2013 , 12:24 PM | #115
Kun really has this one. He's the only one who's prepared for a straight up fight. He's got lots of soldiers, powerful force adepts, access to ton's of resources, a powerful and loyal second in command, and a strong fleet, not to mention his own massive power. In the Revan/Grievous/GOTO fight, it worked to GOTO's advantage that he wasn't a direct fighter but that was only because both his enemies were. With two indirect fighters there's nobody to drain Kun's resources.

Xizor has credits, assassins, merc groups, and a good fleet, but the problem with most criminals is that they'll kill for you, not die for you. As well in an actual fight Xizor was discribed and smart and a good fighter, but that was against normal people, force adepts could rip him apart without breaking a sweat. Guri's also way tougher than your average person but an a one on one fight against either or the other second in commands and she'd get ripped to shreds, she does have the loyalty going for her though. Xizor's is a criminal empire and while he'd rip GOTO and his power base to shreads, his forces aren't designed for the massive conflict that it would take to win against a heavy hitter like Kun.

Traya has the broken remnants of Revan's Empire so ton's of assassins, a decent number of soldiers, some Marauders, some Dark Masters, and a small fleet. If this was a long fight where she could hid out and chip away at Kun then I could see her winning, but if Kun caught her in even one straight up fight she'd get destroyed. She's smart, devious, and pretty scary in her own right, and if she was able to join up with Xizor to fight Kun then I'd give it to her for even a straight up fight, but that's against the rules. Plus I wouldn't exactly call Sion a beacon of loyalty and betrayal by him is certainly not unlikely.

This is the kind of fight that Traya could win if every single thing went her way but if that's...very unlikely. Xizor would need a miracle to win. Percentage-wise I give Kun a 90%, Traya a 9.9%, and Xizor a .1%
Never give up! Never surrender!

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.28.2013 , 12:51 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The Ravager can be destroyed by other means, reason being is that Nihilus was holding it together so without him being on the ship its destroyed being that its not held by the darkside. Though...if Nihilus isn't even apart of this, then I am assuming its just the Ravager before it crashed on Malachor V right? If so then its just a regular Centurion class battleship which really isn't anything special. Honestly even after Malachor V, the only thing that even made it special was Nihilus so without him its not even special after Malachor V its just a beat up wreck, POS.
'POS' is not exactly what I would call a capital ship, more powerful than a Interdictor-class cruiser which was compared with the firepower of a Victory II-class Star Destroyer. The Interdictor and the Centurion where both formidable vessels that helped conquer a third of the galaxy and would have crushed the Republic during the Jedi Civil War. And lets not forget that the Interdictor possessed a gravity well generator, and a tractor beam. Making it even more formidable.

Forgive the attack but I think your selling up short one of the most powerful vessel of its time. And it was. That's technically canon.*

But back to the debate, here's a big fat post for you to consider

Concerning the 'Battle of Coruscant' - lets not forget were talking about the entire Tetan Fleet here, that like 95% of Kun's navy. A fleet that was powerful enough to challenge the Republic Navy. And something else, Kun had Ulic capture over 300 Republic war ships from shipyards on Foerost. And added that to there already expansive Krath Fleet, which we can assume was larger. So I think there is no question Xizor would be eventually overwhelmed... but he could easily escape alive.**

And concerning Xizor mobilizing fleets, unless he has fleets to hand in the Core Worlds (which I highly doubt) he will not be able to call on reinforcements before Ulic arrives from the Deep Core. (Yes he has 'influence on every planet' but not military influence. I doubt the Empire would have allowed fleets so many fleets in the Core Worlds.) Especially considering the fact that hundreds of warships will not be needed to overwhelm Xizor.

Concerning the 'Battle of Yavin IV', Maaurin makes a interesting point. But I fear such a strategy would in fact unbeknownstly work against him. I highly doubt Kun will completely avoid Yavin IV. He has no reason to expect a trap and as the centre of his power (and his dark side power) his first strategy to be to return there either to regroup with Ulic or meditate in an attempt to find Traya using amplified Force sense. Or both. However like you said a good idea, at least from his point of view, will be to 'convert' Malachor V into his own stronghold. However this means leaving at least one Kyramud behind. Leaving him with only one for Traya to destroy in her ambush (the third having been destroyed before hand as it protected Yavin IV). We also have to consider that Traya, not being one to fight on the front lines, will probably retreat to Dxun while Sion leads the charge.

The thing is though, it will be an ambush. Kun won't see it coming and therefore be unable to anticipate it.

And finally, lets think scenarios here people. Assessing the size and power of the combatants power bases is partly irrelevant, this isn't going to come down to one big war. It will be a series of underhanded moves, and be over within a day or two.

*The major powers at that time where the Mandalorians, the Sith and the Republic. The most powerful ships in the Sith armada were the Leviathan and the Centurions (being capital ships i.e. superior to Interdictors) The most powerful vessel in the Republic navy was its capital ship class, the Inexpugnable-class tactical command ship, the Centurion was its successor. It therefore surpasses all other Republic vessels. The only vessels therefore that could match it were the Leviathan, the Kandosii-type dreadnaught and the Kyramud-type battleship.

**Unless Ulic, being a skilled tactician (he played a heavy part in several strategies of the Great Sith Wars), and knowing that Xizor is a crime lord (not likely to possessive a mahusive fleet on hand, cowardly, self preserving, cunning etc.) would anticipate Xizor attempt to flee. So instead he sends a small force to lull Xizor into a false sense of security, believing he has a chance of winning, and then Ulic goes down to the Palace personally and carves a path to Xizor. Meanwhile the rest of his fleet (which is pretty huge) drops out of hyperspace and quickly overwhelms Xizor's remaining forces and surrounds the planet. Sealing off any chances of Xizor escaping. I think Ulic could at least come up with this plan, he came up with several cunning and complex plans in the past that involved subterfuge and diversions. Whether it would succeed or not, well, I'll leave you to decide.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.28.2013 , 01:00 PM | #117
The Ravager was a battlecruiser not a capital ship. More to that, lets look at the specs of a Centurion class battleship given thats what the Ravager is. Where is it stated that it is equivalent to a class 2 Star Destroyer?
======

6 Medium turbolaser cannons

6 heavy ion cannons

5 light laser point defense cannons

and I guess two proton torpedo launchers.
===

I am calling it a POS when comparing to what Kun and Xizor have here.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.28.2013 , 01:27 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The thing is though, it will be an ambush. Kun won't see it coming and therefore be unable to anticipate it.
Still, the ambush is based on the assumption that Kun would go directly for Traya a second time. After he has already seen her run once. I think Kun would try to make sure she doesn't run again, even if he doesn't anticipate the ambush.
He could try to take out her fleet, so he can shoot down her shuttle when she tries to escape. Or he could let his Massassi swarm her shuttle. Or simply keep some basilisks in the air to make sure she will be shot down.

He might also simply wait on Malachor and try to stack the odds in his favor. Normally he does go directly for his opponents, but several times he waited for the right moment to strike.

This would lead to a very strange situation: Traya waiting on Yavin 4 and Kun waiting on Malachor, while Ulic destroyes Xizor's powerbase.

These are several scenarios again. I'm not sure which one is most likely.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.28.2013 , 02:55 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Still, the ambush is based on the assumption that Kun would go directly for Traya a second time. After he has already seen her run once. I think Kun would try to make sure she doesn't run again, even if he doesn't anticipate the ambush.
He could try to take out her fleet, so he can shoot down her shuttle when she tries to escape. Or he could let his Massassi swarm her shuttle. Or simply keep some basilisks in the air to make sure she will be shot down.

He might also simply wait on Malachor and try to stack the odds in his favor. Normally he does go directly for his opponents, but several times he waited for the right moment to strike.

This would lead to a very strange situation: Traya waiting on Yavin 4 and Kun waiting on Malachor, while Ulic destroyes Xizor's powerbase.

These are several scenarios again. I'm not sure which one is most likely.
Going to Yavin IV isn't going directly for Traya (from his point of view.) Its returning to his base of operations to plan his next move and search for Traya through the Force. I see no reasons why he wouldn't go back, being on a foreign planet, the planet of his enemy, with minimal protection is not as safe as being on his own planet surrounded by hordes and hordes of Massassi warriors.

And Kun would likely be heavily overwhelmed. We're talking a max of 2 Kyramud-type battleships (each with a company of 3 Shaadlar-type troopships) against 1 Centurion-class battlecruiser and 8 possibly 10 Interdictor-class cruisers. And then we have the advantage of surprise. Kun and his fleet will drop out of hyperspace right in front of them, and Traya's fleet will open fire with everything they've got before Kun can even activate his shields. Tractor beams (they all had one equipped) will prevent Kun from moving an inch, and gravity well generators will ensure he does not escape.

Alternatively Traya could either start laying waste to his Massassi Warriors and Temple (orbitally) to draw him out. - he would feel their deaths. Knowing that his precious Sith artifacts (which he coveted most dearly) were being reduced to ash would force him into action. On the other hand she would lose the element of surprise and Kun would at least be expecting an attack. Another avenue Traya could take would be assaulting Malachor V itself, destroying his above fleet and then invading Malachor. But this would be difficult as Kun would be entrenched and Traya would have to face Kun personally (albeit with Sion & Sith) in a darkside nexus.

Or, Traya could wipe out his Massassi warriors and his Temple, jump to Malachor and destroy his remaining fleet, jump to Mandalore and steal a Basilisk droid, then jump back to Malachor, and have a Basilisk droid fly down to the surface and drop a proton bomb on the Academy. ()


Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The Ravager was a battlecruiser not a capital ship. More to that, lets look at the specs of a Centurion class battleship given thats what the Ravager is. Where is it stated that it is equivalent to a class 2 Star Destroyer?
======

6 Medium turbolaser cannons

6 heavy ion cannons

5 light laser point defense cannons

and I guess two proton torpedo launchers.
===

I am calling it a POS when comparing to what Kun and Xizor have here.
'Capital ship' is not a class, it is a term for a the vessel that possesses the heaviest firepower and heaviest armour in any given fleet. They are also usually the largest. Any class can qualify as a 'capital ship'. The Ravager was among these:

'The Centurion-class battlecruiser was a capital ship used by the Galactic Republic and the Sith Triumvirate.'
~ Wookieepedia.

'Despite the timespan between designs, the Interdictor-class cruiser was comparable in power to an Imperial Victory II-class Star Destroyer with all the advantages of the Immobilizer 418 cruiser and served a role similar to that of the more modern Star Destroyer designs.' ~ Wookieepedia.

And while I fully agree that the vessels in Kun's Mandalorian Fleet had a larger number of laser batteries, this does not mean they were more powerful. Numbers aren't everything. We also have to consider firepower, size (of the vessel), speed, maneuverability and shielding. Given the class and accomplishments of the Centurion, we can assume that it excelled in those fields.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.28.2013 , 03:17 PM | #120
Right sorry, I was looking at The Ravager where it just has it being a battleship on its wiki page not so much a captial ship. But really the only differences between the Ravager and an Interdictor would be the ion cannons and torpedo launchers.

A Kyramund battleship is enough to destroy the Ravanger, its got 25 medium turbolasers and 10 heavy concussion missile launchers with 80 torpedos. Just have a couple of them open fire on the Ravager and destroy it, tbh the Ravager doesn't even look like its got any shields on it either, Nihilus was holding it together preventing it from being destroyed.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.