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Time for a PvP Fix

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Melaku's Avatar


Melaku
01.25.2013 , 01:59 PM | #421
I've been a sorcerer since lauch. I was spec Corruption until the 1.2 nerf . Then I swapped from hybrid lightning/madness and full madness. Now I mostly use full madness spec. I really don't like bubble pop spec... it's more annoying than anything else. I love the DoTs! Unfortunately, we do not have much power. Don't get me wrong, I usually get much DPS in every WZ. Among the top 3! But, these numbers are useless if its slow paced.. healers can drink their Mojito and heal gradually without any stress. It's like trying to burn wood with a magnifying glass and the sun. It works on ants, but not on wood. the thing i hate the most I would say is that our Force lightning is really easy to reveal our position... one force lightning and i got a marauder and a LOLSMASHMONKEY leaping to me.

But still, Madness is not far from being a viable PVP solution! i agree with some people on ideas I got from this post, some are overpowered, some good and other no so useful.

Sorcerer :
- Overload at 360;
- Force slow roots for 2 sec then slows the target by 50% for 6 sec;

Madness :
- Deathfield still affects 3 but add around 1k damage OT on top of the initial instant damage;
- Paratism up to 2% instead of only 1%;
- Add 50% damage from Creeping Terror but remove 2sec root;
- Wrath affects Shock instead of Lightning strike;
- Replace Sith defiance for a skill which lower Crushing Darkness cooldown up to 5 sec;
- Reduce Affliction cost to 30...

Corruption :
- Conspiring force also reduce damage from target by 5% if they damage you;
- Would make Resurgence not part of GCD.

Lightning :
- Remove bubble stun from target other than yourself;
- Polarity shift double the force damage bonus from Conduction (up to 6% bonus);
- Thundering blast deals 10% more damage;
- Reverberating force also affects Lightning strike;
- Electric Induction reduce force cost by 4/8/12%...

I'm still hoping for some love from BW. Even tough the class is not really good I still enjoy it a lot!
Melaku - Sorcerer
POT5

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
01.25.2013 , 07:45 PM | #422
Quote: Originally Posted by Melaku View Post
Madness :
- Deathfield still affects 3 but add around 1k damage OT on top of the initial instant damage;
- Paratism up to 2% instead of only 1%;
- Add 50% damage from Creeping Terror but remove 2sec root;
- Wrath affects Shock instead of Lightning strike;
- Replace Sith defiance for a skill which lower Crushing Darkness cooldown up to 5 sec;
- Reduce Affliction cost to 30...
The 2-second root on Creeping Terror is essential. You can't remove it.

Creeping Terror already does really good damage per cast time. What I think they need to do on both Creeping Terror and Affliction is shorten the time it takes for them to tick and perhaps add an instant damage piece at the end. Not a ton, but something to give them some oomph. I think 12-15 seconds instead of 18-21 would be reasonable and would make them hit harder, especially if you added 10 percent damage at the end.

Not sure what good Wrath would do for shock. It is already instant. I suppose buffing shock's damage 20 percent would be nice, but it changes the whole concept of the skill if it is just boosting damage of a skill rather than removing cast time.

I'd also like to see them lower the cast of shock. You can't really use it on cooldown without running into force issues, and it is one of the few instant damage abilities we have that hits with any kind of power. In PvP, it isn't a huge deal, because you are rarely going to be in fights that are long enough to deplete your force. But in PvE, it would certainly give us a slight boost that would close the gap with some other specs.

Edonidd's Avatar


Edonidd
01.25.2013 , 11:32 PM | #423
Wrath shouldn't affect shock, really doesn't make sense with what the skill does IMO.

I hate Lightning so, haven't playe dit enough to have any ideas what would make it viable. I know I won't play a squishy low defense kiting class designed around mobility if the tree requires it to completely stand still and cast spells.

But my baseline Sorc fixes -
All Dot tick's either need to interrupt stealth and captures or not break CC. Bioware needs to decide which way to go, but it is patently unfair the way it is.
Overload either knocks a forward arc back an additional 15 meters (Like Knight/Warrior range or further) or gets back the 360 degree radius. Either way they need a 2 second knockdown built in. Baseline.
Affliction does 1 tick of damage instantly, and interrupts caps.
Affliction gets a 2 second root and a 15 second CD (basically becoming current Creeping Terror) - class needs a baseline root.
Force speed instantly removes all movement impairing effects and makes the Sorcerer immune to them for the duration. Baseline.
Static Barrier last 20 seconds and has a 30 second lockout. It absorbs a small amount of every attack (Don't know the numbers on our current bubble, but don't want to make it much better or worse) While the new bubble is up, the Sorcerer is 100% immune to pushback. Only hard interrpupts and mez/stun can now interrupt casting.
Static Barrier is now self only.
Consumption has a soft CD of 120 seconds. Use it before that CD resets and get the current effect, use it every 2 minutes and it grants double the benefit (16% Force) with no penalty to health. Or give a whole new ability that does the same thing if it is easier to code.

Madness fixes -
Creeping Terror becomes an AoE Dot like corrosive grenade. Instant tick, and then DoT.
Deathmark should affect all of your DoT's on a target for 15 seconds.
Parisitism should heal double the damage it currently does, and Devour should still double that.
New skill replacing oppressing Force - Shock does 25% more damage to a target for each negative effect you have applied to them, not counting movement impairing effects (deathmark, creeping terror, affliction, Crushing Darkness) Then have that skill swap spots in the tree with Force horrors.

Corruption fixes -
Revivication functions eaxctly like right now, except the initial cast applies a HoT to anybody it hits granting the full effect even if they move out of the area. Others can still move into the area, but will not have the HoT applied to them, only get the effect from standing in the area.
Allows static barrier and self instant heal to be cast on others. Separate abilities high in the tree.
Dark mending now reduces the cast time of Dark Infusion by 0.50 seconds and 1.0 seconds. Switches spots with Dark resiliance in the tree.

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
01.26.2013 , 02:07 AM | #424
Err many of your suggestion don't make sense. That DoTs (all dots, not just sorc's) don't stop caps is a gameplay decision, not a balance one. They will break stealth if not cleanse first tough.

But mostly, they want to avoid a sorc dotting people just for the sake of it, and paralizing a team. Because thats a hit too easy.

Affliction becoming the current CT as well. The two sec root on a spam CD? Seriously?

Same for the self heals. You are suggesting a bit total of 4% heal on tick crits.

Do the math, it means on single target, a potential of 12% for all 3 DoTs if star align, even more for assassin who shares your tree and can have a 100% uptime on Crushing Darkness, so lets suppose a 35% crit rate, thats roughly 10% on 6 seconds as well. Now if you also tab affliction....

Class needs some loving, sure. But if what you want is a FoTM fix, you just move the problem elsewhere. Annihilation marauders used to have 2% on bleed crit. That made a LOT of self-heals and got nerfed, I suppose to make up for the 1vs1 unmatched ability of it. You are suggesting taking madness way beyond that. As it currently roughly has the pre-nerf annihilation self-heal, with an easier application of them.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.26.2013 , 04:28 AM | #425
Well the problem of balance and "FOTM" arises because some classes are just way ahead in terms of dps and defensives, you know like marauders.

People want to see sorcs buffed alot because marauder is their base line, and can you blame them, when marauders have been roflstomping wzs for months on end now, and sorcs have had successive (unwarranted) nerfs? Did you see that thread about the person monitoring the big hitting moves in wzs, knights/warriors had 4 of the top 8, and unsurprisingly, sorcs didn't have any and even mercs get in there. And not only that 88.5% were smash/sweep.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=588575

And I have sympathy for this view, if marauder is deemed "working as intended", then it's hardly unreasonable to want sorcs buffed to the same level, where's our shroud? Where's our proper damage reduction/interrupt immunity ability? And by the same token, if a spec like rage/focus is deemed okay, then why is it so unreasonable to want 6k death field auto-crits that hit 5 people?

I just do not buy "we are monitoring this situation on rage/focus", they should have seen it is broken no more than a week out of the gate, so the only reasonable inference is they are happy with it, hence I want death field buffed to the same level. I want shroud for my sorc, I want my dots to heal me more with death mark on, I want my dots and shock to hit harder when the target is under 30%, or I want an execute move. I want my dots NOT to break my whirlwind. And if other aoe mezzes which are unsurprisingly instant and stupidly long (like 6s and 8s) and I can be chain mezzed for 14s without my resolve filling up, I want my whirlwind talent that can affect more than 1 to actually work on up to 4 other people in a wz. I want my force speed to no be so easily countered. I can't use my lightsabre for anything, even though I spent plenty of time whacking things with a stick on Korriban, hell i don't even get my mainstat to damage just because I chose sorc, but my strength attribute and power rating affects it? Can you say lolwut?

So yeah, all I see is gross imbalance here

But let's face it I think the writing has been on the wall for several months, sorcs will never attain "FOTM" status again, not that I think they ever were (that really was a gear/L2P issue), and knights/warriors will continue as the undisputed wz champs.

Edonidd's Avatar


Edonidd
01.26.2013 , 07:21 AM | #426
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
Err many of your suggestion don't make sense. That DoTs (all dots, not just sorc's) don't stop caps is a gameplay decision, not a balance one. They will break stealth if not cleanse first tough.

But mostly, they want to avoid a sorc dotting people just for the sake of it, and paralizing a team. Because thats a hit too easy.

Affliction becoming the current CT as well. The two sec root on a spam CD? Seriously?

Same for the self heals. You are suggesting a bit total of 4% heal on tick crits.

Do the math, it means on single target, a potential of 12% for all 3 DoTs if star align, even more for assassin who shares your tree and can have a 100% uptime on Crushing Darkness, so lets suppose a 35% crit rate, thats roughly 10% on 6 seconds as well. Now if you also tab affliction....

Class needs some loving, sure. But if what you want is a FoTM fix, you just move the problem elsewhere. Annihilation marauders used to have 2% on bleed crit. That made a LOT of self-heals and got nerfed, I suppose to make up for the 1vs1 unmatched ability of it. You are suggesting taking madness way beyond that. As it currently roughly has the pre-nerf annihilation self-heal, with an easier application of them.
When DoT's became a major part of the damage we do, it does become a balance issue. I get a long single target mez in the madness tree, or have the games dumbest long term cast time on a single target mez. Both of which will break within 3 seconds of application, because all three specs use Affliction.

I thought I put it in there, but maybe I didn't explicitly state it. Affliction needs to be on a 15 second CD with that change.

The self healing on DoT's WAS excessive on maras. Sorcs already have a self instant heal, plus can't pair the self heals with any defensive CD's. Right now the parasitism and devour combo isn't even noticable.

Kind of hard to have 100% uptime on crushing darkness too. Was kind of my first clue that you don't play sorc.

The only big balance change in madness really would be shock, a six second CD, being able to do 5k ish damage when Crushing darkness is up, I wasn't sure if 25% each would be too much and only 20% each would be better.

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
01.26.2013 , 11:20 AM | #427
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post
When DoT's became a major part of the damage we do, it does become a balance issue. I get a long single target mez in the madness tree, or have the games dumbest long term cast time on a single target mez. Both of which will break within 3 seconds of application, because all three specs use Affliction.

I thought I put it in there, but maybe I didn't explicitly state it. Affliction needs to be on a 15 second CD with that change.

The self healing on DoT's WAS excessive on maras. Sorcs already have a self instant heal, plus can't pair the self heals with any defensive CD's. Right now the parasitism and devour combo isn't even noticable.

Kind of hard to have 100% uptime on crushing darkness too. Was kind of my first clue that you don't play sorc.

The only big balance change in madness really would be shock, a six second CD, being able to do 5k ish damage when Crushing darkness is up, I wasn't sure if 25% each would be too much and only 20% each would be better.
1st- you have 40% of your damage from FL. Use that to stop caps. It means you actually have to pay attention to your node you are defending. Again, gameplay.

2nd - you obviously have a reading issue, since I clearly state the issue will come for ASSASSINS who share your tree (parasitism and devour) and HAVE a 100% uptime on CD with Raze, the Wrath equivalent in the tree.

3rd - self heals on marauder : you obviously never parsed one. Marauder had a self-heal burst on berserk, but otherwise were actually at current madness level, just slightly above 1% hps.

4th affliction and lightning charge's discharge (ON THE ASSASSIN. Caps to help you notice) fill the same role of multi dottting. While creeping terror is not exactly worthy of being a 31 pts ability right now, there is a limit to making it a baseline one. Also, multi dotting has always been a way of helping with procs.

5th - mez ALL break on damage. Lethality sniper ALSO use dots with his, all marauder spec uses rupture. CC can be used in fight, but mostly they are to be used to lock put someone from fight, not a 2nd stun.

Ex : a reinforcement, a healer while your team is killing the tank guarding it.

Also don't forget its a in-fight 60 sec cc in pve. In that regard, its the only one in the game that can see its 1,5 cast removed.

And shock doing 5k when CD is up? Yes plz, my hybrid wants the 3k dps!!!

Currently its not rare that I hit with 4k on a crit and chain shock proc with it.

So you see, not only do I play sorc but I also have experience with most class, something I'm not sure you do other than from a "fighting them" point of view.

Whizzer_'s Avatar


Whizzer_
01.26.2013 , 05:51 PM | #428
For me its really unclear what role semi-mobile ranged DPS should play in any currently existing Warzone that isn't Huttball.
A lot of the proposed buffs/fixes around this forum or the PVP one sound very nice, but as long as Biowares idea for the Sorcs role in a Warzone isnt clear, we cant really say what is an appropriate Buff and what isnt.

Are we supposed to guard the Off-Node, using stuns and our kiting to delay a cap while help is on the way?
Joining in the big fight around the contested objective, supporting the melee train?
Delay reinforcements going for the node currently being ninja'd by your team?

IMO currently there are better classes for everything a DPS Sorc (or Merc) can do in an objective based WZ.
The only thing where we are really shine is in Bubble Spec, which is also pretty silly gameplay wise.

So Bioware, what role do you intend DPS Sorcs and Mercs to have?

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
01.27.2013 , 10:48 AM | #429
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
People want to see sorcs buffed alot because marauder is their base line, and can you blame them, when marauders have been roflstomping wzs for months on end now, and sorcs have had successive (unwarranted) nerfs? Did you see that thread about the person monitoring the big hitting moves in wzs, knights/warriors had 4 of the top 8, and unsurprisingly, sorcs didn't have any and even mercs get in there. And not only that 88.5% were smash/sweep.
You will get no argument from me that the derp-smash spec needs a nerf. However, I think you miss the point.

The problem with that spec isn't that smash is capable of 6k crits. It is that getting them is far too easy. They need to adjust the procs and cooldowns that guarantee the massive crits on low cooldown.

There is no problem with making certain classes have a hard-hitting ability they have to work for while others are more about sustained damage. We are never going to have 6k-plus auto crits on 5 people. If that is what you want, you might as well roll derp-smash spec now. The problem is the sustained damage we are supposed to get just isn't up to standard. It needs a slight buff to bring us up to the damage output potential of some of the other DPS classes. Separately, derp-smash needs a nerf to make it more than a faceroll spec.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.27.2013 , 12:45 PM | #430
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
You will get no argument from me that the derp-smash spec needs a nerf. However, I think you miss the point.

The problem with that spec isn't that smash is capable of 6k crits. It is that getting them is far too easy. They need to adjust the procs and cooldowns that guarantee the massive crits on low cooldown.
Getting them far too easy is just part of the problem, the others being that it's an AOE, virtually unavoidable, a force attack that never misses, and hits harder than any single target move in the game, coupled with the fact that it's on a class that happens to have 3 other big hitting moves, and in the case of marauder, stupidly good defensive cooldowns (and Juggs aren't exactly easy to kill when theirs are up too). The last being they stack power/surge and forgo any crit rating at all and still do well, because of this auto-crit mechanic.

Quote:
There is no problem with making certain classes have a hard-hitting ability they have to work for while others are more about sustained damage. We are never going to have 6k-plus auto crits on 5 people. If that is what you want, you might as well roll derp-smash spec now. The problem is the sustained damage we are supposed to get just isn't up to standard. It needs a slight buff to bring us up to the damage output potential of some of the other DPS classes. Separately, derp-smash needs a nerf to make it more than a faceroll spec.
Well, no I don't want to roll a derp-smash, but I only want the 6k death field auto-crits if smash is here to stay in its current form. It wasn't that long ago they deemed Chain-Lightnin wrath procs too good, but here we sorcs are eating 7k smashes with alarming regularity. How come? So on the proviso smash is here to stay, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for 6k death field auto-crits. What's good for the goose and all that.