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Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament - Xizor vs Traya vs Exar Kun

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.25.2013 , 05:35 PM | #21
OK Beni, here's a scenario for Exar Kun's victory. (Note that it will be perfectly sound. I've been preparing for this battle ) This scenario will be based around Exar Kun's ability to strike quick and hard, something that he did regularly during the Sith War.

Exar Kun will wage two wars at once. He will send Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore to attack Coruscant, while he quickly strikes Malachor.

On Coruscant, Ulic and Mandalore will lead the Mandalorian and Krath armies against the Black Sun, destroying all opposition. Once inside, Ulic and Mandalore confront Xizor (who didn't have enough time to prepare for the attack) and Guri. Ulic will quite easily defeat Guri and Mandalore will kill Xizor.

Meanwhile, Exar Kun marches his hordes of Massassi* on the Trayus Academy. Here they will feed off of the Darkness of Malachor and easily sweep the Academy of Sith. Kun will defeat Sion and hand his body over to the Massassi, who will do unspeakable things to him (but not like that ). Kun will then confront Traya in the Trayus Core, where he will be empowered by the nexus, and destroy her with his superior skill and power.


*Going to try to counter that point (among others)? Please do.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.25.2013 , 05:36 PM | #22
Question: If Sion was under Exar Kun during his rule, then wouldn't he know the weaknesses to his old Master's armies? And possibly the weaknesses of Kun himself?

And let's not forget Traya's assassins. They grow in strength (apparently) to match the strength of their opponent. A few of them could potencially assassinate Kun.

I think I might actually be pulling for Traya in this one... Traya vs. G0-T0 Kaggath would be awesome!
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.25.2013 , 05:37 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Right yeah. Traya and her visions...

You are partially correct. Exar Kun did let his armies do the work, but he created the plans for his conquest. I make note of this in Part 3 of my Great Sith War thread. Ulic's attack on Coruscant went against Kun's plans. Kun had a great plan, a great strategy. Each move was precisely timed.

Now (this will be revealed in Part 4), Kun was actually going to do exactly what Ulic did for the attack on Coruscant. He was going to lure the fleet away and attack an unguarded Galactic Capital.

The ferocity of Kun's attacks give the image of uncoordination, but I assure you that that wasn't the case. In fact, I would place him relatively close to Revan in terms of tactical skill. But they have their differences.
Exar Kun destroyed, his war was a crusade. He wreaked a path of havoc wherever he went, uncoordinated or not, it was certainly not sustainable. IMO Exar Kun would never have defeated the Republic, even if Ulic stayed loyal. Firstly he was too detached from the war, and prioritized personal power of his actual campaign - hence why Mandalore and Ulic disobeyed orders, he did not have control over them. And lets say he did capture Coruscant, and forced the Republic to 'surrender'. It wouldn't have lasted long. He left no infrastructure and nothing to build a government on, it would have fallen apart into internal feuds and disputes, and the Republic would have just swept them aside. And really, none of his strategies where particularly impressive. Go my apprentices! Kill your Masters and eliminate 2% of the Jedi Order!

Revan's war was antithesis of this. His made sure to keep the Republic intact, he conquered key worlds such as Fondor, Coreilla and Duro. And in a few more months would have conquered the Republic. His Empire was solid, his soldiers were loyal, and their was no room for dissent or feuding. Revan's strategy would have worked, Kun's would have failed. IMO Revan is far more tactically superior to Kun, as are most.

But again, me having a rant. I do believe it applies to the debate somewhat. Kun's inability to keep his commanders on a tight leash, combined with his sheer arrogance, could leave to rash, brazen assaults, giving Traya and Xizor opportunities to exploit him. The way I see it so far is Kun will attack both Malachor V and Coruscant simultaneously. Now Kun didn't have a wide range of tactical commanders, his forces were largely commanded by Mandalore and Ulic. So I would think he would send Ulic to lead the attack on Coruscant - else it would be a shambles. And he would likely lead the assault on Malachor, most likely bringing several of his Brotherhood with him. He was arrogant but not completely stupid, Malachor is an unfamiliar and dangerous planet, support would be needed.

But what happens next? How will Ulic fare against Xizor? Where will he strike from? (If he strikes from the Deep Core he could move fast, but would lose the advantage of having Ulic lead the charge) And what traps will Xizor leave? Perhaps a gravity well generator to pull them out of hyperspace en route? Then slowly obliterate the trapped armada? Or will Ulic just steamroll over him?

And what of Malachor V? Traya will almost certainly see an attack coming, and possible predict her defeat. Yavin to Malachor is a matter of hours. She does not have the time to summon her best Sith Lords to her side, save Sion. So will she take fight, or flight? And if so, where will she flee? Ambush him on Yavin 4? Leave Sion to carve a swathe through the Brotherhood, then fake his death?

A lot of questions there But I just want't to here everyone's thoughts on what the outcome of a two pronged invasion of Malachor and Coruscant would be...

P.S. Surely Kun's forces are centralized in the Deep Core and Mandalore? (I'm not sure what fleets the Mandalorians possessed...) That is after all where they struck from in the Sith War. So if Traya strikes first, Yavin 4 will be undefended. It would take a week for the forces at Koros Major to react (which would be attacking Coruscant) and maybe several hours for the forces at Mandalore to do the same. A problem that could be resolved with a two pronged attack on Mandalore and Yavin 4. And a slightly related question, how would Traya's fleet fare against Kun's - if say there was a skirmish between equal numbers. I think it could swing either way...

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.25.2013 , 05:39 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Question: If Sion was under Exar Kun during his rule, then wouldn't he know in weaknesses to his old Master's armies? And possibly the weaknesses og Kun himself?

And let's not forget Traya's assassins. They grow in strength (apparently) to match the strength of their opponent. A few of them could potencially assassinate Kun.

I think I might actually be pulling for Traya in this one... Traya vs. G0-T0 Kaggath would be awesome!
Sion was a student of Exar Kun. It is conceivable that he would know something, but Traya doesn't have much to deal with it.

Indeed, but none of her assassins can match the dueling skills of Exar Kun. And don't say that they can simply backstab him. He has incredible Force senses, which means that he will see assassins coming from across the galaxy (literally).
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.25.2013 , 05:40 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
This. Kun dominates in battle.

But the question is not who will win the battle. It's who'll win the war. And the only way to win is by killing your enemy.
Well, if there is anything Kun is an expert in, it is killing. He normally goes for his opponent, sneaks through their guards somehow, and fights them to the death. Or he creates a plot which kills the one he wants dead. (The Jedi Masters, for example.) As far as I remember, whenever he wanted someone dead, he managed to get him killed. Except for Ulic, because the ancient Sith lords made them allies.

So I guess Kun will go for Traya first, kill her, take over her powerbase, and then search for Xizor. Even though he won't be able to locate him through the Force, Xizor can't evade him forever.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.25.2013 , 05:42 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
On Coruscant, Ulic and Mandalore will lead the Mandalorian and Krath armies against the Black Sun, destroying all opposition. Once inside, Ulic and Mandalore confront Xizor (who didn't have enough time to prepare for the attack) and Guri. Ulic will quite easily defeat Guri and Mandalore will kill Xizor.
If Xizor knows who he's up against, I assure you right from the word "GO" he'll be burning lines trying to get away from Coruscant and his almost-defenseless palace. He does have a fleet and a personal ship. I think Kun will be forced to face him in a space battle. He certainly won't be unprepared for Kun's attack. And hyperspeed isn't a split second and you're there.

Also, I think Guri could kill Mandalore.... but not Ulic, obviously(?).
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.25.2013 , 05:52 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But again, me having a rant. I do believe it applies to the debate somewhat. Kun's inability to keep his commanders on a tight leash, combined with his sheer arrogance, could leave to rash, brazen assaults, giving Traya and Xizor opportunities to exploit him. The way I see it so far is Kun will attack both Malachor V and Coruscant simultaneously. Now Kun didn't have a wide range of tactical commanders, his forces were largely commanded by Mandalore and Ulic. So I would think he would send Ulic to lead the attack on Coruscant - else it would be a shambles. And he would likely lead the assault on Malachor, most likely bringing several of his Brotherhood with him. He was arrogant but not completely stupid, Malachor is an unfamiliar and dangerous planet, support would be needed.
Except for the fact that his forces were incredibly loyal to him and followed orders without question. Ulic and Mandalore weren't big fans of his strategy, preferring the direct assault, which is what Kun will do here. He just has to strike Coruscant and Malachor.

Quote:
But what happens next? How will Ulic fare against Xizor? Where will he strike from? (If he strikes from the Deep Core he could move fast, but would lose the advantage of having Ulic lead the charge) And what traps will Xizor leave? Perhaps a gravity well generator to pull them out of hyperspace en route? Then slowly obliterate the trapped armada? Or will Ulic just steamroll over him?
Ulic will do just fine. Xizor doesn't have enough time to prepare for the attack. His forces strike from the Deep Core. There just isn't enough time to prepare for such a quick attack.

Quote:
And what of Malachor V? Traya will almost certainly see an attack coming, and possible predict her defeat. Yavin to Malachor is a matter of hours. She does not have the time to summon her best Sith Lords to her side, save Sion. So will she take fight, or flight? And if so, where will she flee? Ambush him on Yavin 4? Leave Sion to carve a swathe through the Brotherhood, then fake his death?
Traya can't beat Kun no matter where she goes, but she has the best chance of winning on Malachor. Now if she does go the ambush route, Kun will sense it. Ambushes and assassinations are of little use against him.

Quote:
A lot of questions there But I just want't to here everyone's thoughts on what the outcome of a two pronged invasion of Malachor and Coruscant would be...

P.S. Surely Kun's forces are centralized in the Deep Core and Mandalore? (I'm not sure what fleets the Mandalorians possessed...) That is after all where they struck from in the Sith War. So if Traya strikes first, Yavin 4 will be undefended. It would take a week for the forces at Koros Major to react (which would be attacking Coruscant) and maybe several hours for the forces at Mandalore to do the same. A problem that could be resolved with a two pronged attack on Mandalore and Yavin 4. And a slightly related question, how would Traya's fleet fare against Kun's - if say there was a skirmish between equal numbers. I think it could swing either way...
Traya doesn't have the forces to be able to make a two-pronged attack, and Kun won't need the entire Tetan and Mandalorian fleet to take Coruscant.

A skirmish? Depends on what Exar Kun has with him. His army is incredibly diverse.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.25.2013 , 05:54 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
If Xizor knows who he's up against, I assure you right from the word "GO" he'll be burning lines trying to get away from Coruscant and his almost-defenseless palace. He does have a fleet and a personal ship. I think Kun will be forced to face him in a space battle. He certainly won't be unprepared for Kun's attack. And hyperspeed isn't a split second and you're there.

Also, I think Guri could kill Mandalore.... but not Ulic, obviously(?).
And that brings up a previous point Beni made. The combatants can't just go anywhere. (Unless Beni wants to clear that up a bit more)

Mandalore was quite skilled in battle, but obviously Ulic will destroy Guri.

Edit: and the Empress Teta system is like right next to Coruscant. So they will get there awful fast.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.25.2013 , 06:10 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
OK Beni, here's a scenario for Exar Kun's victory. (Note that it will be perfectly sound. I've been preparing for this battle ) This scenario will be based around Exar Kun's ability to strike quick and hard, something that he did regularly during the Sith War.

Exar Kun will wage two wars at once. He will send Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore to attack Coruscant, while he quickly strikes Malachor.

On Coruscant, Ulic and Mandalore will lead the Mandalorian and Krath armies against the Black Sun, destroying all opposition. Once inside, Ulic and Mandalore confront Xizor (who didn't have enough time to prepare for the attack) and Guri. Ulic will quite easily defeat Guri and Mandalore will kill Xizor.

Meanwhile, Exar Kun marches his hordes of Massassi* on the Trayus Academy. Here they will feed off of the Darkness of Malachor and easily sweep the Academy of Sith. Kun will defeat Sion and hand his body over to the Massassi, who will do unspeakable things to him (but not like that ). Kun will then confront Traya in the Trayus Core, where he will be empowered by the nexus, and destroy her with his superior skill and power.


*Going to try to counter that point (among others)? Please do.
A very interesting and powerful scenario. But point out some flaws:

  • It will take Ulic several days if not a week to get to Coruscant (provided he is on Yavin 4) while it will take a little less for Mandalore to get there, and only a few hours of the Koros fleet to get there. So their going to arrive in dribs and drabs (more so if a gravity well generator is involved) making for it easier for Xizor to destroy them with a constant influx of Black Sun forces who will pour in from across the galaxy. Either that or they will be forced to group together first, giving Xizor ample time to prepare.

  • Traya will foresee Kun's attack on Malachor, and will foresee her defeat. She will therefore escape Malachor with her fleet on the Ravager. Kun will then have to navigate the hazards of Malachor V (landing an army of Massasi warriors in ancient, dodgy vessels on a planet coated in electrical storms and with a strong gravity pull will be difficult) and fight his way through the academy only to find Traya is not there. He will likely search the place top to bottom giving the inhabitants plenty of opportunities to whittle away at this Brotherhood and set traps for the Massassi. Hey they could even sabotage the ships, leaving them trapped on Malachor. (But the ships would probably crash anyway :P) His warriors will probably all die on Malachor, but I'm sure Kun can use his various powers to conjure up some sort of serviceable vessel to get him off the planet.

  • The majority of Kun's fleet - the Tetan Navy - is based in the Deep Core, several weeks away from Yavin 4 and Malachor V. He cannot rely on their assistance to invade Malachor V and will have to solely dedicate them to attacking Coruscant. The Mandalorian Fleet will be split between invading Malachor, protecting Mandalore and protecting Yavin 4. Traya will therefore be able to break through any Mandalorian blockade of Yavin 4 fairly easily. And set up an ambush. For example she could leave her fleet lying in wait, invade his Temple (all the Massassi warriors are trapped on Malachor V) and trash anything of value, and set up an ambush there with 4 other Sith Lords, including Sion the Immortal. When Kun returns from his failed mission his small fleet is ambushed by the full forces of Traya's armada AKA everything. If Kun manages to escape to the surface he'll find himself subject either to orbital bombardment (and unable to protect himself through rituals due to the desecration of his temple) or ambushed by Traya and her most powerful Sith.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.25.2013 , 06:11 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
And that brings up a previous point Beni made. The combatants can't just go anywhere. (Unless Beni wants to clear that up a bit more)

Mandalore was quite skilled in battle, but obviously Ulic will destroy Guri.

Edit: and the Empress Teta system is like right next to Coruscant. So they will get there awful fast.
Yeah, Xizor is free to hyperspace jump outta Coruscant. But he has to go 'somewhere' tangible. Just name a planet and its fine (how about that stronghold we saw in TCW?)