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Tank Relics for Guardian/Jugg

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tank Relics for Guardian/Jugg
 

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.22.2013 , 02:51 PM | #11
it would be nice to run numbers specifically for nim kephess. obviously we cant do anything about the dot that goes out, but the on-tank pre 60% and the on tank post 60% would get some considerable benifit from the on use relics i think.

pre 60) keph does (pre mitigation) a 24500 arcing slash (100% or more accuracy) then a 16,206 hit (90% accuracy) every 1.5 seconds for 4.5, then repeats

post 60) five 5850 hits go out every 1.5 seconds (90% accuracy)

i think this is the most difficult thing to single target heal in the game (warrior phase and dreadtooth(5) are a pain too), where both healers have to focus as soon as the tanks swap since 3 seconds can be 27k+ in damage if you get all bad roles.

my guess is a on use shield/absorb relic would be pretty nice there, and being able to use th DG 20 second one might be prefferable since you going to have to place the blue circles half the time anyway.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.22.2013 , 03:40 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
3) The PVP Defense relics are very good, but I would caution against using 2 of them. The Elite War Hero relics lose 51 endurance to the DG relics and take away a soft cooldown.
I don't put much stock in Endurance whatsoever, especially for Guard/Juggs and VG/PTs so the "loss" of 51 Endurance means almost nothing to me.

The only thing that would have an appreciable effect would be the loss of the soft CD which is, honestly, isn't a major of a concern as you might think: you *should* have Saber Ward and Warding Call both up and available for each of your sub-60% tank turns and Enure for the last if you get it. If you need more than 2 full tank phases on each tank for sub 60%, you're pretty much screwed anyways so you shouldn't absolutely need the "extra" CD: NiM Kephess on 8m has 1288301 hp; 60% hp is ~773k; each DPS should be doing at least 1900 DPS and tanks should be dealing 700 DPS while they aren't affected by Breath of the Masters, which totals to 8300 ops wide DPS (4 * 1900 + 700); the TTK for Kephess sub-60 should then be slightly less than 93 seconds (should be some rollover DPS from DoTs at the pushover); each Breath of the Masters cycle takes 20 seconds; 93 / 20 = 4 cycles with a 13 second overlap, which is short enough to ride Enure (or just kite him).
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grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
01.24.2013 , 04:01 PM | #13
My personal preference for Guardian tank relics is to use a EWH Defence Relic and a Shield/Absorb clicky relic. I'm currently messing around with the DG vs the Campaign one. While the Campaign has the longer duration, the DG one used at the right time seems to make more of a difference.

All that said: tank stats (and healing stats to a degree) are very separate from DPS stats. For DPS, highest average up time is almost always desirable. Tanking is much more reactionary as such, the added utility of the clicky relics is nice. For example, a 20s clicky DG relic during Toth's frenzy or Foreman Crusher's frenzy is worth more than a 30s clicky Campaign during their normal phases. Now with that said, Guardians already have AWESOME CDs for dealing with those situations (Foreman's 3rd frenzy aside) both of those CDs already being better than a clicky relic.

All that said, when on Kephess (even just for HM, we aren't up to him for NiM yet), I want all the CDs I can get.
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Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
01.24.2013 , 06:32 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
In general I feel there is too much emphasis on "averages" in this forum. There is no doubt that war hero relics will provide a higher average mitigation in just about any fight you can imagine. The point I want to make is that there are often periods in every fight where the incoming damage is very high above average. This is the point in time when defensive stats are at their highest potency. Deflection is 5% melee/ranged defense on average. Pretty awful - but if you use it at the right time you become nearly immortal. There can be no proof that one is better in general than the other because it depends on the fight. I will leave it to the individual to decide which is better. This is how it should be, because when new fights are released there is no one to ask which is better and every fight can be defeated with different strategies.
Averages reflect the vast bulk of game content. Boss fights are a comparable minority, and a smaller minority yet are ones that severely stress a tank's survival and healer resources. They're out there, but from a time perspective, something like 95%+ of one's interaction with the game falls into encounters where the statistical average is applicable and useful.

Luckily, relics are sufficiently easy to obtain that picking up a variety beyond what is best-suited to the average case (e.g. ones that are quite obviously well-suited to a particular tank during spike-damage phases) is not excessively onerous.

At worst, one totes around an extra piece of gear per relic slot to accommodate swaps, which is not, to my mind, excessively onerous either. For myself, as an Assassin, I do alternate between a static Defense relic and on-use Shield/Absorb relic, and it requires only a single swap (at present my body armor, once fully re-optimized for available 63 mods on my server, an implant) to keep overall defensive stats in line with the mathematically optimal numbers.

Obviously, there are specific fights which hugely benefit from intelligent timing of on-use relics and normal defensive CDs. That will always continue to be the case, and good tanks will always carry additional relics to be prepared for them. When new content comes out and we don't already have a model for the fight, the first couple attempts will undoubtedly be trickier, but it doesn't take long to figure out whether any given encounter mirrors the statistical average or has properties that make it an outlier and thus better suited to a slightly changed gear makeup.

And really, this entire discussion boils down to relics, because there is precious reason otherwise not to have a single tanking gearset optimized for one's particular class (there's an easy-to-calculate mathematical "best", from which any deviation statistically means more damage taken). One is never better served by having more Defense for one particular fight, and more Shield for another. Other than ensuring sufficient HP (trivial at present), the math doesn't support a lot of customization.

To bring this ramble back to the task at hand... for the vast majority of overall game content at present, one is best served, mathematically, by EWH Defense relics for Juggy/Guardian. For those particular boss fights with highly non-linear damage profiles, one can easily adjust. The number of tanks operating at a level to be concerned about such things is quite small, and a dramatically higher percentage are critical thinkers able to make sane adjustments without too much outside help (progression raiding, especially progression tanking, tends to attract a certain type of person at higher levels of play, and those people are typically more autonomous). It makes the most sense to recommend the most common "best case" to the masses, recognize that there are outliers, and also recognize that most of the people for whom such things even matter are better prepared to see the limitations of the general suggestions.
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RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
01.24.2013 , 08:00 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Averages reflect the vast bulk of game content. Boss fights are a comparable minority, and a smaller minority yet are ones that severely stress a tank's survival and healer resources. They're out there, but from a time perspective, something like 95%+ of one's interaction with the game falls into encounters where the statistical average is applicable and useful.
It's true that the vast majority of time spent in the game is doing trivial tasks, but I don't think it's worth optimizing gear for that content. If you are in EC nightmare there is no point in optimizing for Soa, dailies, etc. At the same time there are people whose highest level of content covers the whole spectrum of the game. If the most you do is dailies every day then the healing relic and absorb relic may very well be the best for you.

Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Luckily, relics are sufficiently easy to obtain that picking up a variety beyond what is best-suited to the average case (e.g. ones that are quite obviously well-suited to a particular tank during spike-damage phases) is not excessively onerous.
This is what I recommend. Keep each type of relic up-to-date in case it turns out to be useful.

Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
To bring this ramble back to the task at hand... for the vast majority of overall game content at present, one is best served, mathematically, by EWH Defense relics for Juggy/Guardian. For those particular boss fights with highly non-linear damage profiles, one can easily adjust. The number of tanks operating at a level to be concerned about such things is quite small, and a dramatically higher percentage are critical thinkers able to make sane adjustments without too much outside help (progression raiding, especially progression tanking, tends to attract a certain type of person at higher levels of play, and those people are typically more autonomous). It makes the most sense to recommend the most common "best case" to the masses, recognize that there are outliers, and also recognize that most of the people for whom such things even matter are better prepared to see the limitations of the general suggestions.
I am perfectly fine with this (although "vast majority" is an overstatement imo). I only have a problem when people say war hero relics are the best for every imaginable scenario.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.24.2013 , 09:12 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
I am perfectly fine with this (although "vast majority" is an overstatement imo). I only have a problem when people say war hero relics are the best for every imaginable scenario.
While it's inappropriate to say that the PvP passive relics are absolutely better in all scenarios, it's also not really appropriate to say that the EWH relics are substantially sub-par compared to the "best" relics even in those scenarios. Most of the effect of the use relics is eaten up by DR, especially at the current tier of gear. Even when the relic buff is active, you're not getting appreciably more than you get out of the passive relics, which is why it's not really all that big of a deal for those situations where the passive relics aren't the best option.
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WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
01.25.2013 , 09:27 AM | #17
My raid leader made a quip before our Kephess kill this week saying that NiM Kephess is the only fight in the game where you really should use a stim. I took that as a challenge and tanked TFB HM without a stim and without any problems last night. While sitting on the upper platforms because our healers get bored otherwise (I think they both run single screens, can't youtube mid fight). After we get our titles and I can risk a wipe on Toth and Zorn and the tanks I'll run up to Kephess without a stim too.

Point being, min-maxing and looking at slight improvements to gearing end game, at the DG level, only really matters for Kephess. For Kephess having a click relic and adrenals ready is far more advantageous than having flat mitigation; I don't think under 60% Kephess is meant to be healable without even a soft cooldown. I blow Saber Ward on either the first or second bleed so the healers don't have to heal the bleed and the damage from Kephess. Even if I hit it on the first bleed it's not back up for the last phase. Our DPS routinely takes the walker to under 20% on the second burn phase, we were 6 seconds +/- 2 under the 4 minute enrage timer. On the kill we had 5 full cycles of Breath of the Masters, and got the kill as I placed the 1st circle of the 6th set. Having Invincible (40% DR), a relic, and adrenal for each of my 3 turns, as well as constant Predation from a Marauder (still beat enrage) made the healing far more manageable.

steave's Avatar


steave
01.26.2013 , 01:00 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Averages reflect the vast bulk of game content. Boss fights are a comparable minority, and a smaller minority yet are ones that severely stress a tank's survival and healer resources. They're out there, but from a time perspective, something like 95%+ of one's interaction with the game falls into encounters where the statistical average is applicable and useful.
And those are the ones you need to optimize for. If they're not really a stress anyway, you'll be perfectly fine in under-optimized gear.

Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
And really, this entire discussion boils down to relics, because there is precious reason otherwise not to have a single tanking gearset optimized for one's particular class (there's an easy-to-calculate mathematical "best", from which any deviation statistically means more damage taken). One is never better served by having more Defense for one particular fight, and more Shield for another. Other than ensuring sufficient HP (trivial at present), the math doesn't support a lot of customization.
False, it depends on the attacks used by the boss. If it's using M/R E/K attacks defense will have less value since an attack that gets trough the defense will be mitigated more by armor and shield, but if it's using M/R I/E attacks each defended attack will provide more damage reduction.
That's what's messing my calculations up at the moment - I want to optimize for Kephess, but I'm not sure what his balance of attack types are, so I'm going with the optimal values assuming only M/R E/K and then arbitrarily raising defense a bit when I mod my gear.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
01.26.2013 , 11:39 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
False, it depends on the attacks used by the boss. If it's using M/R E/K attacks defense will have less value since an attack that gets trough the defense will be mitigated more by armor and shield, but if it's using M/R I/E attacks each defended attack will provide more damage reduction.
That's what's messing my calculations up at the moment - I want to optimize for Kephess, but I'm not sure what his balance of attack types are, so I'm going with the optimal values assuming only M/R E/K and then arbitrarily raising defense a bit when I mod my gear.
Uh...

This is total hokum. There ARE no M/R I/E attacks in the game at present. If there were, it would indeed slightly inflate the value of Defense, but there aren't, so it doesn't. In its absence, the repeatedly-calculated ideal mitigation values remain as the stat split which minimizes mitigate-able damage taken.

Kephess is easy. All of the big spike damage hits in the entire fight except for Rail Shots on the Pulsar droids are yellow damage (Empowered Slash + Savage Wounding, Rocket Blast). The bulk of the damage you take is from Kephess' regular melee attacks, which are just plain Jane M/R.
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steave's Avatar


steave
01.27.2013 , 12:53 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Uh...

This is total hokum. There ARE no M/R I/E attacks in the game at present. If there were, it would indeed slightly inflate the value of Defense, but there aren't, so it doesn't. In its absence, the repeatedly-calculated ideal mitigation values remain as the stat split which minimizes mitigate-able damage taken..
Are you sure? I admit I haven't really checked, so I just took Kitru and Keyboardninjas word for it. One of them, can't remember who, claimed that there are M/R I/E attacks, but no F/T E/K attacks (or did I get that mixed up and it's the other way around?)