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So if pvp survival gear is useless why keep it in-game?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
So if pvp survival gear is useless why keep it in-game?

rainbow's Avatar


rainbow
01.24.2013 , 02:59 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus
And I don't really know jack about DPS operatives but I'm assuming their DPS spec relies on white damage. Powertech has some white damage too I think, isn't rail shot white damage?
Operatives in DPS spec with either concealment (almost exclusively tech damage unless you run out of energy) or lethality (mostly tech damage) are somewhat independent of white damage.

Concealment can however be mitigated a lot by armor.
Jar'Kai Sword:
Adwaennah - Sith Assassin
Evelynne - Operative
Adwaenyth - Jedi Sentinel

Graziell's Avatar


Graziell
01.24.2013 , 03:26 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by RaithHarth View Post
Since tanks are wearing dps gear now due to the fact shield and absorption is completely useless in pvp, it's hard to say if this will be fixed or not...if at all!
*yawn* again? Everyone beside sorc/dps op does white dmg that hurts.
Big white hits:
Assasin maul, execute
jugger execute, ravage , (impale)
maro execute, ravage, (blade rush)
PT railshot
Merc railshot / full auto
Sniper nearly everything if specced into MM, execute

While shield/absorp is not as good as defense chance, which offers 100% mitigation against the same dmg type, nor endurance, which is the best tanking stat pvp-wise, it is still usefull.
Tanksin wear dps gear because they want to dps and not tank. They just exploit poor design choices by BW.

Valinpower's Avatar


Valinpower
01.24.2013 , 04:36 AM | #33
so am i getting this right?
we are only talking about white dmg, because yellow (tech/force) always hits

as stated, its an rpg, so we roll the dice, right?
1st roll: acc - deff
e.g. worst case - best case (guard/jugg)

90/91%(standard acc) - (33,xx% + 3%[riposte]) - 5%[debuff from smash/sweep] = 49/50% chance to hit me with:
execute, leap(which is nice to evade in huttball -> root), ravage, HiB, RS, maul, full auto, ... etc
if i pop my shield the deff goes even higher (100% in best case)

if he does not hit - well no dmg

if it hits

we roll a second time
crit versus shield with crit being dominant
crit can push shield off the table

e.g. 40% shield versus 80% crit chance results in 80% crit chance and 20% shield chance and 0% normal hit
well what are the odds
the dmg is adjusted accordingly with surge or if shielded with absorp and after that it goes through the armor rating
(if theres no crit or no shield then there will be just normal dmg)

with armor rating being the only tool to reduce yellow dmg (except several self buffs)
but do not expect them be comulative
e.g. invincible (40% dmg reduce), shield (25%) and if specced the self heal (15%) wont give u 80% dmg reduce

correct me pls if im wrong, happy to learn ^_^

pro pvp-tanking ftw!

edit says sry for that bad english its not my primary language - but i think ull get
Toulon
fubar

BambulaGTS's Avatar


BambulaGTS
01.24.2013 , 04:52 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Valinpower View Post
so am i getting this right?
we are only talking about white dmg, because yellow (tech/force) always hits

as stated, its an rpg, so we roll the dice, right?
1st roll: acc - deff
e.g. worst case - best case (guard/jugg)

90/91%(standard acc) - (33,xx% + 3%[riposte]) - 5%[debuff from smash/sweep] = 49/50% chance to hit me with:
execute, leap(which is nice to evade in huttball -> root), ravage, HiB, RS, maul, full auto, ... etc
if i pop my shield the deff goes even higher (100% in best case)

if he does not hit - well no dmg

if it hits

we roll a second time
crit versus shield with crit being dominant
crit can push shield off the table

e.g. 40% shield versus 80% crit chance results in 80% crit chance and 20% shield chance and 0% normal hit
well what are the odds
the dmg is adjusted accordingly with surge or if shielded with absorp and after that it goes through the armor rating
(if theres no crit or no shield then there will be just normal dmg)

with armor rating being the only tool to reduce yellow dmg (except several self buffs)
but do not expect them be comulative
e.g. invincible (40% dmg reduce), shield (25%) and if specced the self heal (15%) wont give u 80% dmg reduce

correct me pls if im wrong, happy to learn ^_^

pro pvp-tanking ftw!

edit says sry for that bad english its not my primary language - but i think ull get
Bro what are those "80 %" crit chances you are talking about?

1. Laze target - snipe has 100 % crit chance once per minute.
2. impale and shatter has chance to increase crit chance of vicious throw + 60 %.
3. Usual PT crit 30 % + 15 % set bonus on rail + 25 % explosive fules once in 2 minutes.

That's all? pffff ...

rainbow's Avatar


rainbow
01.24.2013 , 04:56 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Valinpower View Post
e.g. 40% shield versus 80% crit chance results in 80% crit chance and 20% shield chance and 0% normal hit
well what are the odds
the dmg is adjusted accordingly with surge or if shielded with absorp and after that it goes through the armor rating
(if theres no crit or no shield then there will be just normal dmg)
Besides the fact that 80% crit chance (unless some specific abilities) are a bit over the top, it is even worse:

Let's stay with 40% shield chance and 40% crit chance (more reasonable values). Crit happens regardless of shielded or non shielded attacks. Then you have 40% chance to crit. On the remaining 60% you have 40% chance to shield the attack. That is 40% * 60% = 24% shield chance and 36% normal hit.

Quote: Originally Posted by Valinpower View Post
with armor rating being the only tool to reduce yellow dmg (except several self buffs)
but do not expect them be comulative
e.g. invincible (40% dmg reduce), shield (25%) and if specced the self heal (15%) wont give u 80% dmg reduce
If the effects can apply all the time you would have 40% damage reduce and then of the remaining damage another 25% (25% *60% = 15%) so a sum of 55% now and of the remaining 45% you heal 15% (45% * 15% = 6.75%) so you're effective mitigation would be 40% + 15% + 6.75% = 62.75%.
Jar'Kai Sword:
Adwaennah - Sith Assassin
Evelynne - Operative
Adwaenyth - Jedi Sentinel

BambulaGTS's Avatar


BambulaGTS
01.24.2013 , 05:13 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by rainbow View Post
Besides the fact that 80% crit chance (unless some specific abilities) are a bit over the top, it is even worse:

Let's stay with 40% shield chance and 40% crit chance (more reasonable values). Crit happens regardless of shielded or non shielded attacks. Then you have 40% chance to crit. On the remaining 60% you have 40% chance to shield the attack. That is 40% * 60% = 24% shield chance and 36% normal hit.



If the effects can apply all the time you would have 40% damage reduce and then of the remaining damage another 25% (25% *60% = 15%) so a sum of 55% now and of the remaining 45% you heal 15% (45% * 15% = 6.75%) so you're effective mitigation would be 40% + 15% + 6.75% = 62.75%.
With your logic there should be 3 rolls

1. Hit - Miss
2. Crit - Else
3. If else Normal - Shield

But it just simplier

1. Hit - Miss

2.
Simple table
100 sided dice
1-40 crit
41-59 normal
60-100 shield

VarickThrae's Avatar


VarickThrae
01.24.2013 , 06:17 AM | #37
Here is the bigger problem honestly the Tank role and being a support/cc just needs to be made more attractive to play. even healing in pvp is more popular then tanking. My suggestion would be to treat the tank as a walking buff/debuff class that becomes a focus priority similar to healers. Leave the damage output in their gear abysmal and make their very existence a threat. Making the taunt damage debuff last longer and maybe adding more features to make guard more interesting or increasing the effectiveness of allies nearby. Bunch of ways you could make it more interesting but still rely on team mates to get kills. Right now your basically an added health bar for a healer and some damage mitigation. While i do admit sucking up damage from smash into a taunt can be seriously effective it doesn't seem to last long enough to be useful.

btw this is just some general ideas I didn't really work out the logistics of this.

Malkavier's Avatar


Malkavier
01.24.2013 , 07:37 AM | #38
Read this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=213530

That explains to you exactly how tanking stats work in this game, both for PvE and PvP.

Thank you, Taugrim.

Original article is linked in the above post.

Edit: This section is from Georg Zoeller.

Quote:
First is a hit roll, accuracy versus defense, and if the attacker misses then no damage occurs. If the attacker rolled poorly enough to miss even discounting the target’s defense then a “Miss” result occurs. If he misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target’s equipped weapons. All the possible results – Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover – are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways.

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target’s shield chance off the table. It shouldn’t be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target’s shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.
L50 Annhi Marauder L50 Madness Sorc L17 Gunslinger L23 Pyro Tech L35 Medic OP L17 Marks Sniper L50 Lethality Sniper

"Your fear angers me. My anger feeds my hate. My hate gives me strength."

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
01.24.2013 , 08:38 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Yes thank you for restating what I said while also saying you are correcting me, I'll let you get away with that.
Oh wait, no I won't

And I don't really know jack about DPS operatives but I'm assuming their DPS spec relies on white damage. Powertech has some white damage too I think, isn't rail shot white damage?
It was a correction.

You said it works great against Snipers, but it just makes tanks on par with them. This just works.
Tanking stats do not give even a slight statistical advantage against a Marksmanship Sniper who is the only spec dealing near to 100% of their damage through weapon abilities. It's all about luck in RNG.
If you consider their other specs (Engineering and Fatality) you can't say anymore that they're on par, as a part of their DPS is tech, Snipers get a slight upper hand with these specs.
The word "great" was too much because in the best situation, Tanks do not even get a statistical advantage.

And so, stats works just a bit against Jugg/Merc/Mara depending on the spec, as they are all less depedent of weapon damage than snipers.

And yes, defensive stats are near useless against Operatives and Powertechs.
As the two posters following you stated, Operatives do not use weapon damage unless they can't do anything else, and Powertechs only use RailShot as weapon damage ability, an so, most of the half of their damage output comes from Flameburst, Flamethrower, Rocket Punch, Thermal Detonator, Immolate, Retractable Blade and/or other Tech abilities depending on the spec. When your gear doesn't let you be on par for more the half of the overall DPS, you can as well gear yourself with something else.

RaithHarth's Avatar


RaithHarth
01.24.2013 , 08:52 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Graziell View Post
*yawn* again? Everyone beside sorc/dps op does white dmg that hurts.
Big white hits:
Assasin maul, execute
jugger execute, ravage , (impale)
maro execute, ravage, (blade rush)
PT railshot
Merc railshot / full auto
Sniper nearly everything if specced into MM, execute

While shield/absorp is not as good as defense chance, which offers 100% mitigation against the same dmg type, nor endurance, which is the best tanking stat pvp-wise, it is still usefull.
Tanksin wear dps gear because they want to dps and not tank. They just exploit poor design choices by BW.
So basically what your saying tanks that are wearing dps gear is an exploit design flaw from bioware? interesting
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