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Anyone else think the Clone Wars portrays certain things wrongly?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Anyone else think the Clone Wars portrays certain things wrongly?

Thylbanus's Avatar


Thylbanus
01.23.2013 , 01:31 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Sith_Kingpin View Post
I have to disagree with you there. To say the clones were only obeying orders is a little bit bold. The Nazis only obeyed orders, were they not murderous animals during their genocide?
Does that include a secretary in an SS office? Does that include the railways that transported the Jews? Does that include the soldiers in the field? Being a Nazi didn't make you a criminal by association, nor in this case "murderous animals." In the Nuremberg Trials, only 24 of the surviving Nazi leadership were tried, and not all were found guilty. There were no secretaries, railway workers, or soldiers that were indicted.

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I watched ROTS recently, and the way they not only murder the Jedi, but continually shoot them even when they're down and dead is remorseless to me. They were the root of so much death across the galaxy, and killing children is unacceptable.
If I was told that I needed to prepare for the day that Sith may have infiltrated the Jedi Order and have to fight the Jedi, I would shoot as many rounds into them as I could to make sure they were down. An injured Jedi is still more than a match for any clone. Even younglings are deadly given their paranormal abilites. You would have to have served in the military to understand that there are no winners in war. Soldiers are killers. That is their job. There is no kindness in war. Talk to a vet sometime. Ask a Vietnam vet about a friend died because a child held a grenade and it detonated it when he picked the child up. There is a reason for the axiom, "War is Hell."

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You can say they're genetically engineered, but TCW doesn't show them to be mindless drones -- it shows them having individuality and intellect. So, they could easily disobey the order as they form friendships and bonds with their Jedi Generals.
I don't understand what genetic engineering has to do with mindlessness. If they wanted mindless, they would have used droids. They WANTED creative thinking, bravery, intelligence. That was the purpose of making clones to begin with. As I said before, they were indoctrinated that the Jedi could be the the culprits behind the whole war, using it, as Palpatine did, to usurp the rightful government. If it was ever revealed that they were indeed the culprits, they needed the clones to do their duty to protect the Republic. If they weren't, then no one needed to be the wiser. There are people who will follow their commanders and there are people who follow their conscious. The clones were programmed to follow their commander, that sole commander is Palpatine. Who is the guilty one, the executioner or the axe?

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Admittedly, wrongly was the incorrect word as GL has final say on his vision of the SW universe. What I meant was, I personally have small problems with the points I raised, they don't bug me too much as I still love the show and watch it on a weekly basis. It's just, every time I see the clones, I always think they're as heartless as Death Watch and have a capacity to murder as shown in ROTS when they hunt down Jedi without a care in the world.
That is a lot of assumption from a few minutes of screen time. They are soldiers doing what they were trained to do. That is all. They are not some sort of "conscientious objector." They are duty bound to protect the Republic and if the Chancelor declares the Jedi public enemy number one, they are duty bound to defend the Republic. They are professional soldiers who did their duty.

Any soldier who has served in combat knows that if they ever discovered their commanding officers were traitors to everything they hold dear, they would terminate them with EXTREME prejudice.
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Sith_Kingpin's Avatar


Sith_Kingpin
01.23.2013 , 04:09 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Thylbanus View Post
Does that include a secretary in an SS office? Does that include the railways that transported the Jews? Does that include the soldiers in the field? Being a Nazi didn't make you a criminal by association, nor in this case "murderous animals." In the Nuremberg Trials, only 24 of the surviving Nazi leadership were tried, and not all were found guilty. There were no secretaries, railway workers, or soldiers that were indicted.



If I was told that I needed to prepare for the day that Sith may have infiltrated the Jedi Order and have to fight the Jedi, I would shoot as many rounds into them as I could to make sure they were down. An injured Jedi is still more than a match for any clone. Even younglings are deadly given their paranormal abilites. You would have to have served in the military to understand that there are no winners in war. Soldiers are killers. That is their job. There is no kindness in war. Talk to a vet sometime. Ask a Vietnam vet about a friend died because a child held a grenade and it detonated it when he picked the child up. There is a reason for the axiom, "War is Hell."



I don't understand what genetic engineering has to do with mindlessness. If they wanted mindless, they would have used droids. They WANTED creative thinking, bravery, intelligence. That was the purpose of making clones to begin with. As I said before, they were indoctrinated that the Jedi could be the the culprits behind the whole war, using it, as Palpatine did, to usurp the rightful government. If it was ever revealed that they were indeed the culprits, they needed the clones to do their duty to protect the Republic. If they weren't, then no one needed to be the wiser. There are people who will follow their commanders and there are people who follow their conscious. The clones were programmed to follow their commander, that sole commander is Palpatine. Who is the guilty one, the executioner or the axe?



That is a lot of assumption from a few minutes of screen time. They are soldiers doing what they were trained to do. That is all. They are not some sort of "conscientious objector." They are duty bound to protect the Republic and if the Chancelor declares the Jedi public enemy number one, they are duty bound to defend the Republic. They professional soldiers who did their duty.

Any soldier who has served in combat knows that if they ever discovered their commanding officers were traitors to everything they hold dear, they would terminate them with EXTREME prejudice.
Well, maybe I'm just too compassionate and judgemental. Anyway, you're right, I've never been involved in war, so I don't know what it's like. I imagine my survival instincts would kick in, and I would be a hypocrite as I'd no doubt murder the enemy. Maybe I am misreading the situation, but I stick by my feelings on the Clones that I just can't like them.

Duty is duty and we all have to adhere to it at some time in our lives, so I guess you're right. The Clones were protecting the Republic, but in my eyes they were callous. Nothing will change my opinion on this, and even ROTS portrays them as the antagonists of the film after Order 66. I'm not deliberately trying to argue here -- these are just my subjective opinions that won't be swayed.

Themanthatisi's Avatar


Themanthatisi
01.23.2013 , 02:27 PM | #13
Aniken is also a Master in the show and has his own padawan, he never did make the rank of Master as a Jedi....

"How can I be on the council, and not be a master".

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
01.23.2013 , 02:35 PM | #14
I look at it this way. If you read any of the books that were written before TCW cartoon came out like Med star dualogy, Yoda dark rendezvous, Star Wars Republic commando: Hard target, Jedi Trial. Anyways TCW takes a HUGE dump on all those books.

And to top it off, The actual war, only lasted 2 years, but they are cramming all this stuff into the show. AND, Anakin NEVER had a padawn in ROTS. So IMO TCW, just completely craps on the entire series of books written between AOTC and ROTS.
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Thylbanus's Avatar


Thylbanus
01.23.2013 , 03:07 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Sith_Kingpin View Post
Well, maybe I'm just too compassionate and judgemental. Anyway, you're right, I've never been involved in war, so I don't know what it's like. I imagine my survival instincts would kick in, and I would be a hypocrite as I'd no doubt murder the enemy. Maybe I am misreading the situation, but I stick by my feelings on the Clones that I just can't like them.

Duty is duty and we all have to adhere to it at some time in our lives, so I guess you're right. The Clones were protecting the Republic, but in my eyes they were callous. Nothing will change my opinion on this, and even ROTS portrays them as the antagonists of the film after Order 66. I'm not deliberately trying to argue here -- these are just my subjective opinions that won't be swayed.
I hate to quote Star Trek, and I'm sure they are quoting someone else, but when Admiral Jarok said, "One world's hero, is another's butcher." It all depends on what side of the line you are on.

Quote: Originally Posted by Themanthatisi View Post
Aniken is also a Master in the show and has his own padawan, he never did make the rank of Master as a Jedi....

"How can I be on the council, and not be a master".
Anakin is not a Master in the show. Having a padawan makes you a teacher, whom your padawan will call master due to respect. Just as ordinary people have called padawans, Master Jedi. Don't mistake a term of respect with actual title. Anakin is not a Master and never becomes one. The Jedi Council grants the title of Master and there are no certain criteria for attaining such. There are Masters who have never trained a padawan, and there are Jedi Knights who have trained dozens who have never attained the title of Master.

Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
I look at it this way. If you read any of the books that were written before TCW cartoon came out like Med star dualogy, Yoda dark rendezvous, Star Wars Republic commando: Hard target, Jedi Trial. Anyways TCW takes a HUGE dump on all those books.

And to top it off, The actual war, only lasted 2 years, but they are cramming all this stuff into the show. AND, Anakin NEVER had a padawn in ROTS. So IMO TCW, just completely craps on the entire series of books written between AOTC and ROTS.
Yes, Lucas is known for his contempt for the EU. Since he is the lead in much of the Clone Wars, he has disregarded things put forth by these series.

And cramming 5 seasons so far into the 3 yrs of the Clone Wars (2219 BBY), is pretty much a shoe horn. I don't expect that the Clone Wars will last much beyond 6 seasons. Dave Feloni told George that he will keep making the Clone Wars until George tells him to stop.

We have a cliffhanger end to season 5 so there will have to be a season 6, and 7 is questionable. They may do that, just as a wrap up to lead into Ep. 3. I don't know, but I hope Ahsoka is released and becomes a Knight, but she may well die, too. In any event, Anakin will not have her as his padawan by the end of the final season, whatever that number will be.
It's amazing how loud a dollar can be.
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." - Kristin Wilson

GhostDrone's Avatar


GhostDrone
01.23.2013 , 03:20 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
I look at it this way. If you read any of the books that were written before TCW cartoon came out like Med star dualogy, Yoda dark rendezvous, Star Wars Republic commando: Hard target, Jedi Trial. Anyways TCW takes a HUGE dump on all those books.

And to top it off, The actual war, only lasted 2 years, but they are cramming all this stuff into the show. AND, Anakin NEVER had a padawn in ROTS. So IMO TCW, just completely craps on the entire series of books written between AOTC and ROTS.
I don't really follow the show but; i was also wondering how the hell they fit all the events into two years!

I mean, so much stuff happens in the show and when it (eventually) ends we're supposed to be convinced that everyone in ROTS just kind of got over/forgot about all the events that had transpired in the last year or two?
I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest, honestly.

It's the honest ones you want to watch out for. Because you can never predict when they're gonna do something incredibly stupid.

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
01.24.2013 , 05:15 PM | #17
Well a war that spans over multiple planets can be big, but the thing is you have a lot of the same characters doing A LOT of things, you just can't cram that kind of time in IMO.

Seriously, TCW just dumps on SW in general.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
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TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
01.24.2013 , 05:16 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Thylbanus View Post
I hate to quote Star Trek, and I'm sure they are quoting someone else, but when Admiral Jarok said, "One world's hero, is another's butcher." It all depends on what side of the line you are on.



Anakin is not a Master in the show. Having a padawan makes you a teacher, whom your padawan will call master due to respect. Just as ordinary people have called padawans, Master Jedi. Don't mistake a term of respect with actual title. Anakin is not a Master and never becomes one. The Jedi Council grants the title of Master and there are no certain criteria for attaining such. There are Masters who have never trained a padawan, and there are Jedi Knights who have trained dozens who have never attained the title of Master.



Yes, Lucas is known for his contempt for the EU. Since he is the lead in much of the Clone Wars, he has disregarded things put forth by these series.

And cramming 5 seasons so far into the 3 yrs of the Clone Wars (2219 BBY), is pretty much a shoe horn. I don't expect that the Clone Wars will last much beyond 6 seasons. Dave Feloni told George that he will keep making the Clone Wars until George tells him to stop.

We have a cliffhanger end to season 5 so there will have to be a season 6, and 7 is questionable. They may do that, just as a wrap up to lead into Ep. 3. I don't know, but I hope Ahsoka is released and becomes a Knight, but she may well die, too. In any event, Anakin will not have her as his padawan by the end of the final season, whatever that number will be.
Oh it was 3 years, i thought it was two, but two years, 3 years, makes no difference really. I mean can you really cram that much into a 3 year time period. Not really.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy
Finished: Trooper, Agent, Knight, Inquizitor

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.24.2013 , 05:20 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
Oh it was 3 years, i thought it was two, but two years, 3 years, makes no difference really. I mean can you really cram that much into a 3 year time period. Not really.
I would prefer if they did more with the other characters. What has Mace Windu been doing? What about Plo Koon and Kit Fisto? We haven't seen those guys do very much.

(Want to see Plo Koon kick Grievous' butt )
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GhostDrone's Avatar


GhostDrone
01.24.2013 , 06:23 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I would prefer if they did more with the other characters. What has Mace Windu been doing? What about Plo Koon and Kit Fisto? We haven't seen those guys do very much.

(Want to see Plo Koon kick Grievous' butt )
Pretty much this.

Honestly, the old Clone Wars micro-series (Only had 2 seasons, sadly) was the best. They did justice to a LOT of characters.

I mean, Mace Windu nearly defeats a HUUUUUUGE droid army with his bare fists, as well as crippling Grievous severely with one force grip.

Kit Fisto also had one long moment of glory underwater.

Not to mention all the events they fit into the animated series actually look like they belong there and aren't stretched along in any way. The animation style of Samurai Jack was also great to look at (Loved that show).

There's actually both complete seasons on YouTube, right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQYw5lTwaPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhNDb5_0iA
I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest, honestly.

It's the honest ones you want to watch out for. Because you can never predict when they're gonna do something incredibly stupid.