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Tank Relics for Guardian/Jugg

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tank Relics for Guardian/Jugg

NwahsNirom's Avatar


NwahsNirom
01.21.2013 , 10:46 PM | #1
I am a Guardian, with some clears of HM TFB.

Current stats, with buffs and a Rakata Stim, are:
48.76% Damage Reduction,
27.09% Defense Chance
49.25% Shield Chance
50.13% Shield Absorb


I currently roll with a Dread Guard Relic of the Shrouded Crusader (Shield and Absorb Clicky) and the Matrix Cube. I have enough comms for another Dread Guard Relic. I'm thinking of getting either the Defense Clicky, or the Shield/Absorb proc.

I love having full control of my clickies to save myself in crisis situations, so another clicky might by nice. I just wanted to ask a few questions:

1. I am pretty sure they don't share a cooldown, the defense clicky and absorb clicky, but I want to make sure before I buy.

2. Since I already have so many clicky cooldowns to survive, should I grab the shielding proc relic to smooth out my damage mitigation?

Thanks for your input.
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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
01.21.2013 , 11:17 PM | #2
I'm not sure how the clickies interact with each other.

That said, I go with one Defense clicky and 1 Absorb proc relic. Absorb proc because the returns I get on it with how low my Absorb is are pretty huge, and Defense clicky for another mini defensive cooldown with decent uptime. I prefer 2 DG relics to 1 or 2 EWH relics because of the extra HP they provide, while still providing situational mitigation boosts (clicky active with absorb proc = more mitigation than 2 EWH relics).

I'm sitting at 26.3k HP, 53% damage reduction, 31.5% defense, 46% shield chance and 46% absorb chance. 18/23 hybrid (I go with the no channel stasis, Grallmate made a good argument a while back about the burst threat it helps to provide at the start of a fight).

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
01.22.2013 , 01:22 AM | #3
Let's look at what relics are available to tanks:

Dread Guard Defense on click
Dread Guard Shield/Absorb on click
Dread Guard Absorb on Proc

War Hero static Defense
War Hero static Shield
Matrix Cube (Juggs and PTs only)

Before we talk about relics, let's ask what your actual chances are for defensing and shielding an attack is (if you theorycraft yourself skip to the next paragraph). With your current stats, your 27% Defense chance will be buffed up to 30% with Retaliation. Now the base accuracy for boss attacks is 90% aside from "special" attacks as the developers call it, couple that with your Smash debuff and the bosses accuracy is at 85%. Now the chance of dodging the attack is a roll of Defense against Accuracy, and basically is 100% - (85% - 30%), or 45%. Quite a bit larger than your listed Defense chance. The next roll is for Shields, all attacks that bypass your Defense roll have a 50% (rounded) chance of being shielded. The probability of and attack bypassing Defense and then being shielded is then .55*.5, or 27.5% chance to shield.

Now, to start crossing relics off the list. Dread Guard clicky relics share cooldowns, so you only want one. The Defense click relic gives better mitigation to a Jugg than a Shield/Absorb click, so the Shield/Absorb click is tossed out.

The War Hero Shield relic is not ideal for Juggs, you pick up around 550 Shield Rating just through Enhancements and Implants alone unless you're grabbing a lot of Accuracy (which you shouldn't). All calculations that take a total number of defense/shield/absorb points to be allocated, and finds the mathematically ideal allocation show that the amount of Shield rating you have to carry on enhancements and implants is the correct amount of Shield.

Now, the DG Absorb proc relic. You get the boost for 6 seconds after you shield. The slowest attacks will be around 1 attack every GCD. For 6 seconds you have 4 GCD's, so at worst 6 attacks. With our 27.5% chance to shield, it is expected to shield only 1 of those 4 attacks with the Proc still up. Furthermore, the 20 second rate will not be on a 20 second cooldown as there will be 2-3 GCD's after the 20 seconds ends before you shield again to proc it. Now at the upper end, the last phase of NiM Kephess is 5 attacks every GCD (bye bye Sin tanks). That leads to 20 attacks in the 6 second proc window, and at 27.5% chance to shield you expect to absorb 5.5 attacks, and have the 20 second rate constantly refreshed. Each of those attacks Kephess does hits for 2700 after armor. So at 50% absorb, a shielded hit is 1350 damage. Without the proc up, shielding 5.5 attacks in 6 seconds is 7425 damage taken, or 1238 DPS (just from the shielded attacks). With the proc up, you gain roughly 10% absorb, at which point a shielded attack hits for 1080, and shielding 5.5 attacks during the proc comes out to 5940 damage taken, or 990 DPS (just from the shielded attack). That's 248 less damage taken per second during the proc window, but factoring in the proc only being up 6 out of 20 seconds, it averages out to 74 less damage taken per second.

In comparison, the Matrix Tank Cube has a static +21 Defense chance on it. That adds about .4% Defense Chance. When looking at the tank melting numbers from Kephess (19500 DPS pre-mitigation) that made the absorb proc relic look viable, that .4% Defense Chance actually works out to 30 less damage taken per second. Not quite where the absorb proc is, but you have to realize that this is one phase of one fight. Every other fight in the game save the TFB tentacles attacks with far less frequency, at which point the RNG will go full 6 second windows where you don't shield again. For Hybrid Juggs with less than 45% shield chance, and those like myself with 31% Defense Chance, the math is even more in favor of a Matrix Cube providing all around more mitigation than the Absorb proc, and has the added bonus of a lot of Strength to help with threat.

The last relic to mention is a War Hero static Defense relic. There shouldn't be any argument about this one, it's a viable relic and the only knocks against it are being low endurance and without power or main stat. That leaves the DG Defense click, War Hero Defense, and Matrix Cube as the three more viable relics for appropriately geared Jugg tanks (if your defense chance is below 25% I can't help you...). Personally, I pick the DG and Matrix cube because I like the main stat boost, higher endurance, and less pvp involved with the Matrix Cube over the War Hero, but most combinations of those 3 will work well.

Side note for Sin/PT tanks. The absorb proc relic is certainly more viable (and I think BiS for PT's), though the Defense click will likely be better than the shield click. I sort of mess with my PT alt, but I'll admit I don't know much about Sin tanks.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
01.22.2013 , 09:07 AM | #4
I'm currently running def clicky but since I already have cca 600 def rating or 30% stimmed I find that I get very little in return from the DG def relic it pushes up my def rating to over 800 but less than 2% in terms of actual def gained. Problem was I got the relic before checking out the DR graph and from that I feel that a shield relic would be better, first of all shd/abs have much steeper curves but their actual DR sets on later, especially for shield, abs is about the same. Second I already have a fairly low shd/abs in comparison to other tanks and thus I feel that I would get more from the Shield Relic.

For second relic I am thinking either shd proc or WH/EWH defence, which in turn means I can get more shd/abs on gear.

Also aren't clikcies on 1m lock out from one another, and thus the second one could be used before the first one is off cd?
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.22.2013 , 12:27 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
Now, to start crossing relics off the list. Dread Guard clicky relics share cooldowns, so you only want one. The Defense click relic gives better mitigation to a Jugg than a Shield/Absorb click, so the Shield/Absorb click is tossed out.
No, they don't. Identical relics share the same CD but different relics (different tier *or* different stat) simply put the unused relic on a 1 minute cooldown. As such, if you have 2 use relics, you can use them both on CD, once every minute without any loss to uptime.

You're also forgetting something *very* important about the DG use relics for tanks: they only have a 20 second duration. You actually get better returns out of the Rakata Defense relic (290 Defense for 30 seconds every 2 minutes = 72.5 Defense on average) than you do out of the DG Defense relic (350 Defense for 20 seconds every 2 minutes = 58.33) because of this. It's one of the reasons why pretty much no one recommends the DG tank use relics any more: the previous tiers are actually *better* (for use relics, the Campaign relic is best for Shield/Abs and the Rakata is best for Defense; the DG relics are both major downgrades).

Quote:
the math is even more in favor of a Matrix Cube providing all around more mitigation than the Absorb proc
While it's true that, for a Guardian tank, the Absorb Proc is friggin' terrible, saying that the Matrix Cube vacillates between "slightly better" (1.2% less damage taken) in high attack/second scenarios to "slightly worse" (.25% more damage taken) in average scenarios isn't the same as "math is in favor of the Matrix Cube providing more mitigation", especially since you're only factoring in *basic* attacks rather than any of the special M/R attacks that are going to have substantially less real contribution from Defense (so you've ended up inflating the value of Defense by a fair margin). If anything, since the situations you should care about as a tank are those where you're predictably taking a crapton more damage, weighted properly, the Matrix Cube is actually substantially worse. Even so, at worst, it's functionally a break even, and, at that point, it's not because they're both *good* relic choices: it's because they're both *bad* relic choices.

Quote:
TThat leaves the DG Defense click, War Hero Defense, and Matrix Cube as the three more viable relics for appropriately geared Jugg tanks
As I've pretty well demonstrated, there's only 1 real "viable" relic for Guardian/Jugg tanks and it's the WH/EWH passive PvP relic. The Matrix Cube and the Abs proc relic are both terrible, terrible break evens and the DG use relic is, at *best*, marginally better than either of those. All 3 of them are *worlds* worse than the WH/EWH passive relic though so there's no real option otherwise: if you're not using the PvP relics, you're using painfully subpar ones.
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RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
01.22.2013 , 12:50 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
All 3 of them are *worlds* worse than the WH/EWH passive relic though so there's no real option otherwise: if you're not using the PvP relics, you're using painfully subpar ones.
How much does your war hero relic help when tanking zorn, or stormcaller, or not tanking vorgath, or not taking damage on kephess, etc, etc, etc? Saying that all other relics are sub-par is absolutely silly. Get both, use the best one for whatever fight you are on. The factors that determine this choice are: (1) % of time taking melee/ranged hits, (2) % of incoming damage that is melee/ranged, (3) frequency of melee/ranged damage spikes, (4) farm vs. progression content.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.22.2013 , 01:16 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
How much does your war hero relic help when tanking zorn, or stormcaller, or not tanking vorgath, or not taking damage on kephess, etc, etc, etc?
You're essentially attempting to defend the use relics here (the Abs proc relic and Matrix Cube are functionally static benefits that only apply in situations where the WH/EWH relic is outright better), so I'll elaborate as to why the use relics are functionally sub-par compared to the WH/EWH: their durations and DR.

The duration matters because the best use relic for a Guardian is the Rakata use relic, which averages 72.5 Defense averaged over time. Even if you have 50% uptime on a boss doing only M/R attacks with the other boss doing pure F/T damage (T&Z or twin tanks with swap) and use it on CD, you're getting, at most 145 Defense averaged over time on the M/R boss. This assumes the absolutely *perfect* use situation for the use relic, which doesn't happen in reality. At best, you can assume something closer to 40% uptime in the relevant situations, which equates to ~120 Defense averaged over time, which is what you get constantly out of the EWH relic. This is where the second part comes into play.

Because the use relics provide a massive amount of a stat for a short period of time, they suffer from diminishing returns much more severely than the passive relics. Because of the severity of the DR curves, you're going to experience roughly 25% more diminishing returns out of the use relics (and the proc relic) than you will out of a passive relic. As such, you're not getting 120 Defense out of the Rakata use relic: you're getting closer to 100-110.

Even leveraged properly, the use relics are going to provide less mitigation than you would get out of the passive relics. Before DG and EWH gear and relics were released (the former because they pushed you further into the DR curve which makes the diminishing returns effects of the use and proc relics more sever and the latter because the durations were, apparently, standardized at 20 seconds rather than fixed to both be 30 seconds), the use relics were a viable option (I used a Campaign relic of Shield/Abs on my Shadow tank and championed it's use *regularly*; in fact, I was the one that brought up the variable uptime argument and did the math to prove that you got more out of the use relics than the WH relics 6 months ago). The problem is that, since the best use relics *did not* improve while the best passive relics *did*, compounded by gear pushing further into the DR curves to diminish the comparative value of the use relics, the use relics are *no longer* a truly viable and effective option.

In short, the use relics *used* to be a potential and viable BiS option, but they are no longer. It's not even a question of situational benefits any more; you're better served outright by using the passive relics.
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WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
01.22.2013 , 01:34 PM | #8
Kitru, it's been long over due that I got to bounce relic ideas around with someone. To argue against a few points:

1) The 20 seconds of use for DG. Yea, that was annoying to see. However, for defense click relics, the Campaign relic has always been 20 seconds of use, and the Rakata relic is only available to Artifice users. So, unless you're using Artifice you're stuck with 20 seconds on use, at which point the DG relic is more favorable for its higher boost and higher endurance. It appears I was wrong about click relic cooldowns, though I'm not sure why you would need two then, given you have 2 good cooldowns as a Jugg and hopefully adrenals. That's another debate though.

2) I'll concede Matrix Cube ~= Absorb Proc for Juggs. I like the Matrix Cube more for its main stat and decent endurance (more than Campaign relics, less than DG relics) than its defensive stats since I take all lettered mods and have some real ******* Marauders in my guild. I've been running that setup since before the DG relics were put in game and I didn't have much in the way of 63 gear, so I'm a bit stuck in my ways.

3) The PVP Defense relics are very good, but I would caution against using 2 of them. The Elite War Hero relics lose 51 endurance to the DG relics and take away a soft cooldown.

Can we come to an agreement that the more preferable arrangement is 1 (E)War Hero Defense relic and 1 DG Defense click relic for Juggs? The extra Defense on use (5.25% for me, sitting at 566 Defense Rating) can be very useful when things are only going slightly bad, and is pretty much needed with an adrenal or second click relic to survive the last phase of NiM Kephess.

RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
01.22.2013 , 02:15 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're essentially attempting to defend the use relics here (the Abs proc relic and Matrix Cube are functionally static benefits that only apply in situations where the WH/EWH relic is outright better), so I'll elaborate as to why the use relics are functionally sub-par compared to the WH/EWH: their durations and DR.
Yes, I personally believe the absorb proc and matrix cube are both terrible.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The duration matters because the best use relic for a Guardian is the Rakata use relic, which averages 72.5 Defense averaged over time. Even if you have 50% uptime on a boss doing only M/R attacks with the other boss doing pure F/T damage (T&Z or twin tanks with swap) and use it on CD, you're getting, at most 145 Defense averaged over time on the M/R boss. This assumes the absolutely *perfect* use situation for the use relic, which doesn't happen in reality. At best, you can assume something closer to 40% uptime in the relevant situations, which equates to ~120 Defense averaged over time, which is what you get constantly out of the EWH relic. This is where the second part comes into play.

Because the use relics provide a massive amount of a stat for a short period of time, they suffer from diminishing returns much more severely than the passive relics. Because of the severity of the DR curves, you're going to experience roughly 25% more diminishing returns out of the use relics (and the proc relic) than you will out of a passive relic. As such, you're not getting 120 Defense out of the Rakata use relic: you're getting closer to 100-110.

Even leveraged properly, the use relics are going to provide less mitigation than you would get out of the passive relics. Before DG and EWH gear and relics were released (the former because they pushed you further into the DR curve which makes the diminishing returns effects of the use and proc relics more sever and the latter because the durations were, apparently, standardized at 20 seconds rather than fixed to both be 30 seconds), the use relics were a viable option (I used a Campaign relic of Shield/Abs on my Shadow tank and championed it's use *regularly*; in fact, I was the one that brought up the variable uptime argument and did the math to prove that you got more out of the use relics than the WH relics 6 months ago). The problem is that, since the best use relics *did not* improve while the best passive relics *did*, compounded by gear pushing further into the DR curves to diminish the comparative value of the use relics, the use relics are *no longer* a truly viable and effective option.

In short, the use relics *used* to be a potential and viable BiS option, but they are no longer. It's not even a question of situational benefits any more; you're better served outright by using the passive relics.
In general I feel there is too much emphasis on "averages" in this forum. There is no doubt that war hero relics will provide a higher average mitigation in just about any fight you can imagine. The point I want to make is that there are often periods in every fight where the incoming damage is very high above average. This is the point in time when defensive stats are at their highest potency. Deflection is 5% melee/ranged defense on average. Pretty awful - but if you use it at the right time you become nearly immortal. There can be no proof that one is better in general than the other because it depends on the fight. I will leave it to the individual to decide which is better. This is how it should be, because when new fights are released there is no one to ask which is better and every fight can be defeated with different strategies.

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
01.22.2013 , 02:30 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
In general I feel there is too much emphasis on "averages" in this forum.
This. You can have a full combat log of NiM Kephess showing an average of about 1150 DPS taken over the course of the fight. That more than hides the fact that without cooldowns you're eating around 4000 DPS from under 60% Kephess. With a click relic activated you're taking 160 less DPS than if you had a War Hero relic in that slot, and you only have about 20 seconds at a time on Kephess. Let me put this misrepresentation of averages into perspective: Assasins get ROCKED by Force/Kinetic damage, but, they can often come out far ahead of other tanks by Force Shrouding key damage spikes.