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Time for a PvP Fix

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Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
01.20.2013 , 12:58 PM | #391
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Why not go one further. Unsubscribe and stop playing the game. That'll show 'em.

Meanwhile, those of us who top warzone charts with our sorcs on a regular basis will keep playing and enjoying the class.
Yes, you and those who are legends in their own minds. It is obvious to me that you are the most contrary person I've ever had the displeasure to engage on any message board. Your lunacy knows no bounds.
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SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
01.20.2013 , 01:49 PM | #392
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
Yes, you and those who are legends in their own minds. It is obvious to me that you are the most contrary person I've ever had the displeasure to engage on any message board. Your lunacy knows no bounds.
Yes, stating the fact that a Sorc is perfectly capable of topping damage charts in a warzone is "lunacy." Look, I've said repeatedly we could use a slight buff to damage, and the trees could use a little work. But all this doomsday crap about the class being completely unplayable in warzones is just ridiculous. It's not that bad. Suggesting that the class is so out of balance as to warrant some sort of walk-out on Sorcs is, as you would say, lunacy.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.20.2013 , 01:55 PM | #393
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Yes, stating the fact that a Sorc is perfectly capable of topping damage charts in a warzone is "lunacy." Look, I've said repeatedly we could use a slight buff to damage, and the trees could use a little work. But all this doomsday crap about the class being completely unplayable in warzones is just ridiculous. It's not that bad. Suggesting that the class is so out of balance as to warrant some sort of walk-out on Sorcs is, as you would say, lunacy.
While I do agree I think it is more of a problem such a high skill is needed reach moderate success with a dps sorcerer for endgame/skillcap results that are sub-par to other class capabilities.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
01.20.2013 , 03:19 PM | #394
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
While I do agree I think it is more of a problem such a high skill is needed reach moderate success with a dps sorcerer for endgame/skillcap results that are sub-par to other class capabilities.
I reject this notion. I think everyone agrees that the derp-smash spec is too easy and needs a serious nerf. If you are comparing Sorcs to the one spec in the game that everyone agrees is OP, then yes, you need a high level of skill to put out the same damage numbers as other specs. But the same could be said for other classes as well.

Honestly, you just need to be relatively competent to do good damage in warzone with most any spec.

A minor damage buff is needed to puts sorcs at the same level as other advanced classes for DPS output both in PvE and PvP. We are talking around 5 percent. Anything more than that is unrealistic and unnecessary.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.20.2013 , 04:53 PM | #395
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Why not go one further. Unsubscribe and stop playing the game. That'll show 'em.
We tried that already- subs dropped from 1.7 million to around 500k within 2 months after patch 1.2 came out- multiple reasons for that of course, but just looking at WZ ratios it was clear a massive amount of sorcs, dps ops and mercs had stopped pvping and unsubbed.

If losing over two thirds of your playerbase and having to go free to play, while having 3 classes absent in DPS roles from RWZ for nine months isn't enough for BW, then there probably isn't anything that'll convince them.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.20.2013 , 05:14 PM | #396
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
I reject this notion. I think everyone agrees that the derp-smash spec is too easy and needs a serious nerf. If you are comparing Sorcs to the one spec in the game that everyone agrees is OP, then yes, you need a high level of skill to put out the same damage numbers as other specs. But the same could be said for other classes as well.

Honestly, you just need to be relatively competent to do good damage in warzone with most any spec.

A minor damage buff is needed to puts sorcs at the same level as other advanced classes for DPS output both in PvE and PvP. We are talking around 5 percent. Anything more than that is unrealistic and unnecessary.
It's not just the burst damage we're behind on- we have the worst mitigation, no defensives, our mobility boost is very easy to counter and we only get a root break in the healing spec, our baseline CC is some of the most limited in the game- which is why everyone's getting into lightning partway for backlash and bindings.

Our force regen mechanic for corruption is terrible in pvp, we are the most mitigated class armour-wise while having the least mitigation ourselves, we are lacking some of the great passives- like 15% run speed, or aoe damage reduction- and we don't have short term damage immunity or CC immunity or leap/pull immunity.


5% isn't going to make a sorc come even close to the burst my PT and marauder can do. It's why when you see a sorc with 800k damage, you also see both teams did 2 million healing, and the sorc has 5 kills- when a PT, mara, sniper, jugg or sin does 500k damage- they have 70 kills.

The problem isn't 'damage', the problem is actual killing power- we don't have it, a healer that purges kills the damage of madness, and can outheal it even if they don't- a lightning sorc can do more burst, but like a merc is immobile and if anyone decides to shut down a lightning sorc- they will.

If we aren't going to have killing power- we need something else, and having a snare with less duration than CD and no baseline root and no baseline CC protection of any kind makes us a piss poor kiter.

It's not really doom and gloom now- we called doom and gloom back when 1.2 came out- four months later the game's f2p, even though at the time it was going strong and f2p wasn't on the table.

Even those that are playing now are pvping less- I used to get instant pops whenever fleet hit 200, now there can be 2 1/2 fleets plus at least DK, Korriban, NS are full too- and fifteen minute waits on normals; RWZ are becoming extinct.

So, we lost 1.2 if not more million subs, went f2p within months of the patch that neutered us, are all but absent in the dps role in RWZ, and pvp's popularity per person playing is at an all time low.

What for you exactly constitutes a point where we have a problem that needs something to be done to fix it? Band-aids aren't going to do it, and throwing in a slight damage increase is not going to make us suddenly a RWZ viable class- you know that full well.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
01.20.2013 , 10:31 PM | #397
Sorcerers should produce the highest damage potential in the game, period.

Balance is a constant tension between two polar opposites:

[Survivability]---------------------[Netural]--------------------[Output]

Survivability is defined as maximal Hit-Point Potential, Armor Rating, Mitigation, Defensive-Cooldowns, and Mobility. Output is defined as the ability to produce meaningful damage or healing that is both sufficient and necessary to kill or heal a target.

In theory an Advanced-Class that excels at one end of this spectrum, to retain overall class balance, requires concomitant inferiority on the other end.

Sorcerers suffer from the worst survivability in the game, and yet also suffer from perhaps the 2nd worst (Mercenaries/Commandos) Damage Output in the game.

Either our defensive capabilities need to be brought in line with our Damage-Potential, allowing us to actually survive long enough for our DoT-damage to be effective or our Damage-Potential needs to increased.

In this sense I would argue that Madness requires a mere 5% damage increase, ideally as front-loaded DoT damage. The spec's mobility and CC capabilities will otherwise allow it to survive.

Lightning on the other hand suffers from nigh-complete immobility and cast-sensitive attacks, thereby requiring either a major defensive redesign or a more significant boost to damage.

Yes, a high-level player who extracts the greatest potential from a Min/Maxed AC is going to be effective.

Balance however is not a subject for the outliers, it is a matter for the median and mean values of a specification, and at the moment our AC suffers horribly in that regard.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
01.20.2013 , 11:55 PM | #398
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
We tried that already- subs dropped from 1.7 million to around 500k within 2 months after patch 1.2 came out- multiple reasons for that of course, but just looking at WZ ratios it was clear a massive amount of sorcs, dps ops and mercs had stopped pvping and unsubbed.

If losing over two thirds of your playerbase and having to go free to play, while having 3 classes absent in DPS roles from RWZ for nine months isn't enough for BW, then there probably isn't anything that'll convince them.
They didn't lose all the subs because of PvP balance. And ranked warzones haven't even been out nine months.

You keep making these posts listing all these things we are terrible at, and I just don't buy it. If all your claims were true, I wouldn't see so many sorcs doing good damage in warzones. It isn't just personal experience I am considering. Again, I concede that there is a slight gap with some other specs, but the idea that we need this huge number of buffs you are suggesting is just not based in reality. We have lots of tools that you don't consider. We get a bubble and a free self heal, both on low cooldown. We have kiting tools. You can deride them all you like, but they are there and they do help. And if they buffed the class like you are suggesting, it would become overpowered worse than derp-smash.

fantomjchx's Avatar


fantomjchx
01.21.2013 , 12:44 AM | #399
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
It's not just the burst damage we're behind on- we have the worst mitigation, no defensives, our mobility boost is very easy to counter and we only get a root break in the healing spec, our baseline CC is some of the most limited in the game- which is why everyone's getting into lightning partway for backlash and bindings.

Our force regen mechanic for corruption is terrible in pvp, we are the most mitigated class armour-wise while having the least mitigation ourselves, we are lacking some of the great passives- like 15% run speed, or aoe damage reduction- and we don't have short term damage immunity or CC immunity or leap/pull immunity.


5% isn't going to make a sorc come even close to the burst my PT and marauder can do. It's why when you see a sorc with 800k damage, you also see both teams did 2 million healing, and the sorc has 5 kills- when a PT, mara, sniper, jugg or sin does 500k damage- they have 70 kills.

The problem isn't 'damage', the problem is actual killing power- we don't have it, a healer that purges kills the damage of madness, and can outheal it even if they don't- a lightning sorc can do more burst, but like a merc is immobile and if anyone decides to shut down a lightning sorc- they will.

If we aren't going to have killing power- we need something else, and having a snare with less duration than CD and no baseline root and no baseline CC protection of any kind makes us a piss poor kiter.

It's not really doom and gloom now- we called doom and gloom back when 1.2 came out- four months later the game's f2p, even though at the time it was going strong and f2p wasn't on the table.

Even those that are playing now are pvping less- I used to get instant pops whenever fleet hit 200, now there can be 2 1/2 fleets plus at least DK, Korriban, NS are full too- and fifteen minute waits on normals; RWZ are becoming extinct.

So, we lost 1.2 if not more million subs, went f2p within months of the patch that neutered us, are all but absent in the dps role in RWZ, and pvp's popularity per person playing is at an all time low.

What for you exactly constitutes a point where we have a problem that needs something to be done to fix it? Band-aids aren't going to do it, and throwing in a slight damage increase is not going to make us suddenly a RWZ viable class- you know that full well.
You sir are brilliant.

fantomjchx's Avatar


fantomjchx
01.21.2013 , 12:51 AM | #400
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
They didn't lose all the subs because of PvP balance. And ranked warzones haven't even been out nine months.

You keep making these posts listing all these things we are terrible at, and I just don't buy it. If all your claims were true, I wouldn't see so many sorcs doing good damage in warzones. It isn't just personal experience I am considering. Again, I concede that there is a slight gap with some other specs, but the idea that we need this huge number of buffs you are suggesting is just not based in reality. We have lots of tools that you don't consider. We get a bubble and a free self heal, both on low cooldown. We have kiting tools. You can deride them all you like, but they are there and they do help. And if they buffed the class like you are suggesting, it would become overpowered worse than derp-smash.
Oh well u just prooved to ALL of us that ur not sorcerer player, and ur just black sheep arround here, so go away.
The point is black sheep doesnt see is that we lack OF KILLING POTENTIAL IDC about DMG, I Can spamm force lighting ,death field and thundering blast for DMG everbody can do it. But what u dont see is that we ( sorcerers ) true skilled players are getting pissed off because every single warzone a bounhc of people are focusing us for. The point is if EVERBODY focusing me I WANT SOMETHING FOR EXCHANGE for all that focus. But we dont have anything..and u know when u dont have anything for exchange that means you are free kill. I want burst ability, I want something in exchange for being focused by all in every single wz. And the dude told u u can see sorc doing a lot of DMG but with 5 KILLS while snipers/pt and other DPS class has 70 kills. I also used to PvP A LOT before 1.2 came out because it was actually fun, but now theres just no point in PvPing because I will get piss off by being focused by everyone and give nothing in to exchange.

I really hope so u r going to do something with sorcs bioware because Im gona unsub as I did after 1.2 And trust me theres so many people thinking like this...

For me 1.7 is last hope