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Full Tank Tree Jugg > Hybrid Jugg

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Full Tank Tree Jugg > Hybrid Jugg

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.17.2013 , 11:56 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I still want to know how you somehow managed to determine that 4% shield chance is worth more than 4% K/E DR (which is blatantly false to pretty much anyone that knows anything about mitigation in TOR). Even *ignoring* Blade Barrier, the hybrid should have better mitigation because that's the only difference in passive mitigation: 4% K/E DR compared to 4% shield chance.
I never managed that. the pre blade barrier numbers for hybrid are less (hence better). those numbers were me trying to work backwards, I have updated numbers.

here is the methodology:

for reference, look at the tanking stat weights for the variable definitions.

> Juggernaut Tanking 32-7-2;

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+10+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )): ;
> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):
> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+19+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):
> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):
> ac90 := .5;
> ac100 := .5;
> ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr));

> HYBRID Juggernaut Tanking 17-22-2;

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+10+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )): ;
> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):
> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+15+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):
> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):
> ac90 := .5;
> ac100 := .5;
> mit(dr,shr,abr):=ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr));


where mit(dr,shr,abr) gives the mitigation from the mitigation stats. you can see that full jugg has 4% more shield.

to make my life easier i took the balanced numbers for 1400 to 2000 and created a linear regression that gives mit(N), where N=dr+shr+abr. this gives:

M[FJ](N):=-4.608E-5*N+0.346: for full jugg (FJ) and M[J](N):=-4.068E-5*N+0.3267: for hybrid jugg (HJ)

now i take the kinetic vs elemental into account by MA(N,DR[iK],DR[iE]):=0.9*M*DR[iK]+0.1*DR[iE]
where MA is mitigation with armor/DR and i is used as a placeholder for HJ or FJ

where DR[iK] is the damage reduction for kinetic (which is 1-0.5311 for hybrid and 1-0.4911 for full jugg) and elemental is 1-0.2 for both DR[FJE]=DR[HJE]=1-0.2.

so the equation for taken dps looks something like:

DT=DPS*MA(N,DR[K],DR[E])-DA-SH-HPS = DT[i](DPS,N)-DA[i],

where the i can use a FJ or HJ for the DR numbers to be referenced. for FJ we have
DA[FJ]=990/12 and DA[HJ]=990/9,
where DA is damage absorbed (from blade barrier for instance), SH is self heals (from combat technique for shadows) and HPS is heals from the healer (typically assumed to be zero for time to kill calc), where all are in units of DPS.
the final step is to include the DA in the DPS function, where this is taken as 990/12 for full spec and 990/9 for hybrid spec so we get:
DT[FJ](DPS,N):=DPS*(0.9*M[FJ](N)*DR[FJK]+0.1*DR[FJE])-990/(12):
DT[FJ](3000,1800)=519

and
> DT[HJ](DPS,N):=DPS*(0.9*M[HJ](N)*DR[HJK]+0.1*DR[HJE])-990/(9):
> DT[HJ](3000, 1800)= 451.0


to find the amount of dps required to make mitigation increase the time to kill we say that DT*t=H(N)
where H(N) is the health pool size as a function of N, which i have also set to a linear function to make my life easier:

H[J](N):=-10.5*N+44911:
H[FJ](N):=-10.5*N+44911:

same subscript uses apply for full and hybrid juggs.

so DT*t=H gives the t which kills the tank, but if we solve for t, then differentiate t with respect to N and set that to zero, we can find a relation between DPS, N and HPS for when the slope goes positive with increasing N. but thats not being discussed here.

time to kill is just H/DT

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
01.17.2013 , 12:16 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I still want to know how you somehow managed to determine that 4% shield chance is worth more than 4% K/E DR (which is blatantly false to pretty much anyone that knows anything about mitigation in TOR). Even *ignoring* Blade Barrier, the hybrid should have better mitigation because that's the only difference in passive mitigation: 4% K/E DR compared to 4% shield chance.
I think he updated the numbers to show hybrid taking less damage, and an even bigger difference factoring blade barrier.
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Kitru
01.17.2013 , 12:36 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
I never managed that. the pre blade barrier numbers for hybrid are less (hence better). those numbers were me trying to work backwards, I have updated numbers.
I'm talking about from the very beginning (whereupon I'm pretty sure you were originally using time-til-death as your original metric of comparison, not post-mitigation DPS so you bounced between "high is good" to "low is good" between your 2 calculations) where you somehow thought that 4% Shield contributed more than 4% K/E DR. Even if you didn't realize that the hybrid got more out of Blade Barrier, it should have been readily apparent that, based purely off of the passive benefits, that the hybrid takes less damage. I can only guess that you simply thought that the hybrid didn't get Blade Barrier *at all*, which simply points out that it would behoove you to research the given specs a bit more before you go about drawing conclusions from them.
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.17.2013 , 12:54 PM | #14
as i stated, i was informed that the full spec had the benifit of the blade barrier and that was the primary component of survivability that contended wirth the hybrids superior mitigation (which i agree is obvious). that is what i set out to compare, barrier to mitigation... but that was a faulty analysis due to blade barrier being a component to boths' survivability. but i was then informed by this thread that hybrid got the same benifit at a higher frequency.

i provided time to kill and post mitigation dps in all of my analysis, so i dont know what you are talking about there.

if i had a jugg im sure i would have noticed the force scream thing. sorry for the confusion. all of the information i needed was in the skill tree on AMR.

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Kitru
01.17.2013 , 01:03 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
i do a fair amount of research, and there is nothing in the mmo-mech forums, nor the skill tree that shows me that hybrid gets the blade barrier benifit. i do not have a jugg, so i could not draw on such experience for that knowledge.
Did you even try to determine what the hybrid tank spec *is*? This is the basic hybrid tank spec (the last point isn't spent because there isn't a "standard" place it's spent). If you look at it, you'll see that you actually get the Blade Barrier talent. As such, it *is* in the skill tree, so unless you just didn't know what the hybrid tank spec actually looks like, you would've actually seen it.
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dipstik
01.17.2013 , 01:04 PM | #16
yeah i missed it sorry, edited my post

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magi_melcior
01.19.2013 , 11:53 AM | #17
Which Tank build is best really depends on two things, 1 the type of things you are doing (Raids, PvP ect) and the player behind the mouse/keyboard, after all different play styles will suite different people.

I run a Guardian Tank as my Main and have tried both Hybrid and full Defense. My opinions are based not on numbers but on my own experience which I will admit is totally subjective.

If you're still leveling or just doing Dailys and PvP at end of game then the Hybrid is a better choice as it does get both slightly improved DR and more DPS, makes Soloing stuff much easier. But if your trying to run Tank in Operations then the Full Defense Build, simple reason, Threat. In a raid the most important job a Tank has is to hold the bosses attention and keep him off the DPS and Healers and a full Defense tank has more tricks up their sleeves to help generate agro especially in the early opening phases of the fight. I don't know what the Jugg equivalents are but Guardians get both Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike from the upper half of the Defense Tree both of which generate a lot of Threat if worked into a rotation. Toth and Zorn in EC HM is a good example, when I was running Hybrid build I would keep losing agro to some of the more over-enthusiastic DPS, simply put I couldn't do damage fast enough to stay ahead on the agro table and was often faced with a choice of either allowing the boss to pound the DPS for a few seconds before the Tank Swap or use my taunts to get him back and not have them ready when the bosses jumped, you know you have an agro issue when even a Guarded DPS pulls agro twice during the first 10% of a boss fight.

After going full Defense, which tbh I did not like as much at first, I had almost no issues with hold threat, even with the same overly active DPS players, once I'd landed the first hit I could hold him no matter what the DPS threw at him. Simply open with Saber Throw, Force Leap, Hilt Smash, Guardian Slash then hit him with Force Stasis (I know it doesn't stun him but it is also a DoT) then move the boss into position and use ranged attacks (Blade Storm and Force Push) to keep agro. Very occasionally I might lose agro but then you have the AOE taunt to get it back, I no longer need to waste both taunts before the swaps occur

That being said I know at least 2 Guardian Tanks in our guild who run Hybrid spec and have few problems with agro, as I said it's more about the type of player you are, find which build you are good with and stick to it. For me it was Defense for you it might be something else.

In Flashpoints (with the possible exception on LI HM) the two builds pretty much even out..
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wadecounty
01.19.2013 , 12:05 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by magi_melcior View Post
Which Tank build is best really depends on two things, 1 the type of things you are doing (Raids, PvP ect) and the player behind the mouse/keyboard, after all different play styles will suite different people.

I run a Guardian Tank as my Main and have tried both Hybrid and full Defense. My opinions are based not on numbers but on my own experience which I will admit is totally subjective.

If you're still leveling or just doing Dailys and PvP at end of game then the Hybrid is a better choice as it does get both slightly improved DR and more DPS, makes Soloing stuff much easier. But if your trying to run Tank in Operations then the Full Defense Build, simple reason, Threat. In a raid the most important job a Tank has is to hold the bosses attention and keep him off the DPS and Healers and a full Defense tank has more tricks up their sleeves to help generate agro especially in the early opening phases of the fight. I don't know what the Jugg equivalents are but Guardians get both Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike from the upper half of the Defense Tree both of which generate a lot of Threat if worked into a rotation. Toth and Zorn in EC HM is a good example, when I was running Hybrid build I would keep losing agro to some of the more over-enthusiastic DPS, simply put I couldn't do damage fast enough to stay ahead on the agro table and was often faced with a choice of either allowing the boss to pound the DPS for a few seconds before the Tank Swap or use my taunts to get him back and not have them ready when the bosses jumped, you know you have an agro issue when even a Guarded DPS pulls agro twice during the first 10% of a boss fight.

After going full Defense, which tbh I did not like as much at first, I had almost no issues with hold threat, even with the same overly active DPS players, once I'd landed the first hit I could hold him no matter what the DPS threw at him. Simply open with Saber Throw, Force Leap, Hilt Smash, Guardian Slash then hit him with Force Stasis (I know it doesn't stun him but it is also a DoT) then move the boss into position and use ranged attacks (Blade Storm and Force Push) to keep agro. Very occasionally I might lose agro but then you have the AOE taunt to get it back, I no longer need to waste both taunts before the swaps occur

That being said I know at least 2 Guardian Tanks in our guild who run Hybrid spec and have few problems with agro, as I said it's more about the type of player you are, find which build you are good with and stick to it. For me it was Defense for you it might be something else.

In Flashpoints (with the possible exception on LI HM) the two builds pretty much even out..
From what you've said in your post, I think your problem is poor Focus management, which is going to gimp you at the start of a fight with the Hybrid build. With Guardian Slash more or less being equal to Overhead Slash, Hilt Strike only equaling the threat of a Sweep or Blade Storm (not to mention only useable once at the start of a fight), and Blade Storm and Overhead Slash both coming off cooldown quicker at the start than Guardian Slash and Blade Storm in a Defense build, the issue is likely that you're not understanding how to properly front load your burst threat with the hybrid, because if you do, the hybrid will actually beat full Defense in burst threat over a 30 second or so period (which is the most important part of the fight for tank threat generated by attacks rather than taunts).

Just based on what you wrote, I can tell you're inefficient with your usage of attacks, not using Sweep in your first 5 attacks makes no sense considering it puts on an important debuff and it is your best threat attack after Guardian Slash (1.3 threat modifier placed on Sweep compared to 1.5 on Guardian Slash, and it does considerably more damage than Hilt Strike).

On top of this, once you actually have the boss, the most important thing for a tank in operations is mitigation, and the hybrid wins out here.

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Kitru
01.19.2013 , 12:51 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by magi_melcior View Post
But if your trying to run Tank in Operations then the Full Defense Build, simple reason, Threat.
That's pretty much wrong. It's been proven time and time again that the hybrid manages better ST threat than the full Def spec does when played properly. The 2 "high threat" attacks that full Defense don't really contribute as much as you're suggesting they do, mainly because they've got comparatively poor damage and longer CDs. You don't *need* the high threat modifier when you're just dealing more damage outright, more than enough to compensate for not having a high threat modifier on 5 attacks per minute.
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vertigo_
01.19.2013 , 08:23 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Did you even try to determine what the hybrid tank spec *is*? This is the basic hybrid tank spec (the last point isn't spent because there isn't a "standard" place it's spent). If you look at it, you'll see that you actually get the Blade Barrier talent. As such, it *is* in the skill tree, so unless you just didn't know what the hybrid tank spec actually looks like, you would've actually seen it.
Not always, I run 17/23/1 with the powertech set bonus on my jugg. no sonic barrier at all. works great

edit: I will take sonic barrier if im pugging with crappy healers. I usually try to increase dps / threat.