Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Tanking Stat Weights


darh_halo's Avatar


darh_halo
01.16.2013 , 05:05 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
That's actually pretty good. Since you can't not get more than enough Shield while maximizing mitigation and stat budget and the ratings don't account for that, having slightly more Absorb than "recommended" is actually recommended.

As to your relics, your first goal should be getting one of the DG heal proc relics: it's the BiS relic for Shadows. From there, either get a DG abs proc relic or an EWH Defense relic (your other passive relic option is Shield rating and you've already got more than enough of that). The DG tank use relics aren't that great because the devs nerfed their uptime; the Camp shield/abs use relic is decent because it still has the 30 sec duration, but I still wouldn't use it over either of the other 2.
What about for Jugg-Hybrid tank? should I go with EWH shield relic + DG abs proc relic OR straight EWH shield relic + EWH def relic. I'm torn out between those two combinations for PVE...
<<Been Tanking Since Launch Date !>>
Server TOFN - Hybrid Build at heart
Immortal hybrid - DF hybrid - Mad Maul hybrid

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.16.2013 , 11:15 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by darh_halo View Post
What about for Jugg-Hybrid tank? should I go with EWH shield relic + DG abs proc relic OR straight EWH shield relic + EWH def relic. I'm torn out between those two combinations for PVE...
Since Defense is so valuable for a Guardian tank, your BiS is generally 2 EWH passive Defense relics. No tank should *ever* use the EWH Shield relics: you get all the Shield rating you need on your gear naturally. If you undercut your Absorb rating a bit (some of the Guardians I know do this to get higher Defense, which generally pays out well because of Guardian's low Shield chance), you can get an excellent payout from the DG absorb proc relic.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.16.2013 , 12:55 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Since Defense is so valuable for a Guardian tank, your BiS is generally 2 EWH passive Defense relics. No tank should *ever* use the EWH Shield relics: you get all the Shield rating you need on your gear naturally. If you undercut your Absorb rating a bit (some of the Guardians I know do this to get higher Defense, which generally pays out well because of Guardian's low Shield chance), you can get an excellent payout from the DG absorb proc relic.
I suggest PT/Vanguards use the shield relics since they can only get about 600 shield from enhancements and ear/implants. unless you are suggesting they use those slots for defense and absorb.

It has been shown that the proc absorb relic does not perform as well as the on use shield/absorb relic for mitigating damage.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.16.2013 , 01:11 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
It has been shown that the proc absorb relic does not perform as well as the on use shield/absorb relic for mitigating damage.
I'm kind of curious where exactly this was shown. I was a strong proponent of the use relics up until the DG tier came out and we, once again, were shafted with 20 second durations. I'm curious to see how it was shown with the new tier.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.16.2013 , 02:51 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I'm kind of curious where exactly this was shown. I was a strong proponent of the use relics up until the DG tier came out and we, once again, were shafted with 20 second durations. I'm curious to see how it was shown with the new tier.

my bad, i compared on use defense to one use shield absorb. lemme do some calcs.

i posted the results in an edited post in the impering serentiy thread. but here are the results assuming we are at a 1600 pool and we use the relic on CD and it procs as often as possible (which i dont think is a safe assumtion for the proc relic since i think it will only be active for 3 or 4 hits every 20 seonds unless you have a bunch of adds on you: the proc absorb does come out ahead out of all the dread guard relics, but the war hero ones are still ahead

Def Use shield proc absorb 1700
PT 0.464 0.462 0.46075 0.4566
Jugg 0.42515 0.4237 0.42315 0.42
Sin 0.3519 0.35015 0.34846 0.3452


sorry for the formatting, not sure how to inset tables.

but the summary is adding 100 balanced points is better than any of those relics, unless of course the higher mitigation during the iinterval of use overcomes the mitigation from lower off use intervals, but that would be a per fgiht calc, not really a 3000 static incoming dps.

RhinoUF's Avatar


RhinoUF
01.18.2013 , 04:32 PM | #76
Thanks for the write-up dipstick. I have one HUGE hairy question that I would very much appreciate you or someone helping me out on.

How does the Absorb proc relic (BiS for Vanguard) effect the "optimal" stat distributions.

Without any math I can see that during a long fight in my character screen with proc up and stacks of screen my absorb goes as high as 75% (up from about 58.5% pre-screens/proc). This seems DR to me big time, however that up time is not 100%.

Obviously having that large chunk of absorb periodically up must effect optimization numbers. Without calcing it out I have just shifted some abs to shield.

Buffed at 18.5% def, 61%shield, 58.5% absorb. Roughly 27k HP (3 b mods)

So how do I factor this in, since not 100% up time it cant be the full stat # increase, but seems like needs to be accounted for.

Thoughts?

Rhino-B (LotFM)

Kytea's Avatar


Kytea
01.18.2013 , 10:07 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
POWERTECH/VANGAURD
total defense shield absorb
1400 314 586 500
1500 335 634 531
1600 358 681 561
1700 382 727 590
1800 409 772 619
1900 435 817 647
2000 463 862 675
For the vanguard, does this distribution take "powerscreen" into account?
I'm at def/shield/abs 18/55/46% before a fight, but during a fight, I'm at 18/55/54% due to the 8% absorb bonus from Powerscreen. It isn't a proc and I'm able to maintain it to 8% fairly steadily.
Thanks
It's not impossible. It's just improbable.

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.19.2013 , 05:17 AM | #78
shonio: i have shown what a 1600 budget gets from the proc relic versus 100 more balanced mitigation points just a few posts back. i tried not to base the stat weights on such momentary bursts of mitigation, but what i would do is just add the 455*6/20 absorb to the equation and i would then reperform the optimization calc. 455 is the amount added (i think) and it can be up 6/20 amount of the time. in terms of the way it affects the equations, its just like assuming the proc relic is another stim for absorb... would you could also use for calc... but agian... its such a small portion of the time and it would make u have less absorb all the time on your gear, which would make you more spikey

ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+8+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr+((455*6/20)) / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

i assumed for the calcs that tanks had their "normal" stacks of debuffs on the boss continuously. you can look at the vanguard numbers to see what debuffs are on the boss. i tried to seperate the numbers that way. thats why u dont see 12 in the absorb formula for vanguards, and you see 4+8:

ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+8+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

TripleBacon's Avatar


TripleBacon
01.19.2013 , 05:41 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Since Defense is so valuable for a Guardian tank, your BiS is generally 2 EWH passive Defense relics. No tank should *ever* use the EWH Shield relics: you get all the Shield rating you need on your gear naturally. If you undercut your Absorb rating a bit (some of the Guardians I know do this to get higher Defense, which generally pays out well because of Guardian's low Shield chance), you can get an excellent payout from the DG absorb proc relic.
Hi. Noob tank Guardian here. Could you elaborate on why that is true? I've seen that you said that JGs get a lot of skills that help defense. Could you be more specific?

It'd help my understanding quite a bit.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.19.2013 , 10:07 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by TripleBacon View Post
Hi. Noob tank Guardian here. Could you elaborate on why that is true? I've seen that you said that JGs get a lot of skills that help defense. Could you be more specific?
To explain this, it's first necessary to understand one of the really wonky aspects of gearing up in TOR: the variable value of shield and absorb. Defense has a relatively static value: each percent of Defense chance you get provides 1% damage mitigation against M/R attacks. Shield and Absorb aren't the same. Since Shield chance represents the chance that you have to reduce the incoming damage of an attack by the amount of your Shield Absorb, the performance of a relative improvement is a variable quantity: 1% additional shield chance whenever you've got an absorb of 30% represents only a .3% reduction in incoming damage whereas, with 70% absorb, it would equate to a .7% reduction in incoming damage.

As such, while Defense remains largely static in value, Shield and Absorb vary based upon their relevant listed percentages. Since the listed percentages are a function of your static talent bonuses combined with your gearing but DR only affects gearing, you need a lot of bonuses from talents to shield and absorb to make stacking Shield and Absorb valuable: without the native bonuses to Shield and Absorb, it's not really possible to get to the point where stacking Shield and Absorb to appreciable extents (re: more than just the token quantity that you see listed in the itemization budgets here) is truly effective thanks to diminishing returns. As such, since the Defense tree has a single, highly anemic Shield talent, no absorb talents, but a friggin' *ton* of Defense from talents (3% from Single Saber Mastery, 6% from Guard Stance, 3% from Blade Barricade), Shield and Absorb are very low value which makes Defense very high value. For comparison, Shadows get 20% additional Shield chance and 4% additional Absorb (along with 6% Defense chance) and Vanguards get 8% additional Shield chance and 12% additional Absorb (with only 2% additional Defense).
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.