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Anger and fear.


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Beniboybling
01.18.2013 , 07:11 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
there are no such things like "real goals", every goal is worth the same. To experience everything you want, first you require unqustioned power. In the SW vast galaxy those who want everything are obliged to go after it. Peace is a lie, a key to progress was always in passion, chaos in form of war or any other form that pumped need of advancement, Sith enjoy their infinite combat voyages, it is their purpose, to test themselves.No one can become consumed by power, it is just a quote people like to use when their relatives achiev something, do dirty things and alienate themselve. Sith are ready do destroy and be destroyed, they dont ask for mercy nor give it. They are much more fulfilled in their lives than jedi who whole their lives supress emotions and are at conflict with themselves just because code says so.

hes far from paranoid, he was even calm when JK caused some troubles. he doesnt care for little flies.
that quote says that he wants to live however he want to, unrestricted by laws of a mere mortals. He is definately not insane, hes simply intelligent beyond measure of those who sorrounds him. after all, he lived for 36k years after TOR, so he will Survive this battle and any that will become - and what I can speculate about his death is that he chose it for himself after he got bored

and Traya wasnt exactly the most calm person from what I remember
By 'real goals' I mean goals that are there own. Goals they make for themselves. Arguably yes, for a Sith to achieve want they want they need ultimate power. But do they know what they want? What are they going to do when they achieve ultimate power? "First you require unquestioned power" and second? What did Sidious do when he achieved the Grand Plan, sat on his throne and began ensuring he would not lose that power. That's the problem, they get caught in an endless power cycle - achieve power > preserve it > gain more power > preserve it > gain more power > preserve it. And so when they finally die, they really have achieved nothing, they leave little legacy. What legacy did Sidious leave? A Galactic Empire which was eventually torn apart because he didn't not name a successor, and ultimately because it was a tool for him to achieve power. Sure he unlocked the mysteries of the dark side, but ultimately he didn't employ his powers to do anything meaningful.

And from looking back a Galactic History, the Sith Emperor didn't achieve anything meaningful either. He failed and left no legacy. And yes he was paranoid, the only thing he feared was death. And all his plans were designed to avoid it. By destroying the entire universe, nothing could ever kill him. But maybe I'm wrong about the Emperor, maybe he didn't just want to escape death. I suppose he really wanted to become a god, and be able to experience all forms of life. And he did achieve complete detachment from his emotions. I'm not really sure where to place him, he could be a Raw Sith, an Uber-Focused Sith or just plain insane. And he chose to die because he was bored? That's insane, that's stupid. Fortunately its not true, otherwise the Emperor would be a categorical idiot. I'm afraid the Emperor is dead. For now.

And yes, you can be consumed by power. For example, Darth Vader. Why did he 'fall' to the dark side? To save Padme. What happened? He was consumed by the dark side and ended up killing her. And then take Darth Nihilus, he wasn't even a man anymore, in fact it would be a stretch to call him sentient. He had be completely consumed by his hunger and wanted nothing more but to consume.

And remember, I'm not talking Jedi calm here e.g. rejecting your emotions completely. An Uber-Sith can still feel emotion, they can still feel anger, hate, frustration etc. they just don't let those emotions control them. Ever. Traya never let her emotions control her.

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Beniboybling
01.18.2013 , 07:17 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I always got the impression it was (from a film stand point) that giving into one's emotions was giving into the dark side in so much as it was the road of easiest travel. Easier to obtain the power you want by going DS than obtaining the power you want and being LS.

One says more training, the other says, don't have time, need it all now!

They say give into your emotions, your passion, and love for others can be both of those.
Yes but that's one way of seeing the dark side, the Jedi way. After all the Force is 'transcendent' if you like, right? It encompasses light and dark, its all-powerful and above all other life forms. So it stands to reason that giving into ones emotions is not the only way to achieve dark side power, the Force isn't that trivial, its beyond petty mortal things such as emotions. Emotions are the easy path to the dark side, but not the only path. Take Sith sorcery for example, to wield it takes practice, study, patience and meditation. You can't just embrace your emotions are start conjuring Sith magic. You have to unlock its power just like a Jedi would. So why can't you do this for the dark side itself? Using your emotions gives quick and easy power, but studying the Force gives even greater and long term power. And of course, to achieve real power, you need focus.

Do you see what I mean?

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Surinen
01.18.2013 , 07:32 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
By 'real goals' I mean goals that are there own. Goals they make for themselves. Arguably yes, for a Sith to achieve want they want they need ultimate power. But do they know what they want? What are they going to do when they achieve ultimate power? "First you require unquestioned power" and second? What did Sidious do when he achieved the Grand Plan, sat on his throne and began ensuring he would not lose that power. That's the problem, they get caught in an endless power cycle - achieve power > preserve it > gain more power > preserve it > gain more power > preserve it. And so when they finally die, they really have achieved nothing, they leave little legacy. What legacy did Sidious leave? A Galactic Empire which was eventually torn apart because he didn't not name a successor, and ultimately because it was a tool for him to achieve power. Sure he unlocked the mysteries of the dark side, but ultimately he didn't employ his powers to do anything meaningful.

And from looking back a Galactic History, the Sith Emperor didn't achieve anything meaningful either. He failed and left no legacy. And yes he was paranoid, the only thing he feared was death. And all his plans were designed to avoid it. By destroying the entire universe, nothing could ever kill him. But maybe I'm wrong about the Emperor, maybe he didn't just want to escape death. I suppose he really wanted to become a god, and be able to experience all forms of life. And he did achieve complete detachment from his emotions. I'm not really sure where to place him, he could be a Raw Sith, an Uber-Focused Sith or just plain insane. And he chose to die because he was bored? That's insane, that's stupid. Fortunately its not true, otherwise the Emperor would be a categorical idiot. I'm afraid the Emperor is dead. For now.

And yes, you can be consumed by power. For example, Darth Vader. Why did he 'fall' to the dark side? To save Padme. What happened? He was consumed by the dark side and ended up killing her. And then take Darth Nihilus, he wasn't even a man anymore, in fact it would be a stretch to call him sentient. He had be completely consumed by his hunger and wanted nothing more but to consume.

And remember, I'm not talking Jedi calm here e.g. rejecting your emotions completely. An Uber-Sith can still feel emotion, they can still feel anger, hate, frustration etc. they just don't let those emotions control them. Ever. Traya never let her emotions control her.
what? isnt ultimate power enough to be happy? not every owner of the knife keeps it for action purpose, there are those who simply look at them and enjoy fabrics. preserving power is required, after all, when you have a good time obliterating those lesser beings, they have this horrible attitutde to meddle with your plans, so it is required to stomp them from time to time, and when they grow stronger you realise that your stomping is going too slow, so more power is required, another funky goal to accomplish. endless cycle of carnage. meaningful, for him it was definately meaningful, he enjoyed power, pulling strings, he enjoyed many things.

Sith Emperor afraid of death? he seems to despite it rather than fear. and there is nothing idiotic and insane/stupid in wanting death after experiencing many things, after all a true death is one of those experiences he lacked, after achieving what he wanted, tasting it, death seems to be a good choice in the end.

Anakin was impulsive and young, it is difficult to tell if he got consumed by anything more than being jelous, he didnt want to kill her, and he didnt kill her, she lost a will to live because ( probably because of her slow mind ) and Nihilus, he was simply ill and hungry because of it.

She was just an old woman, pathetic and weak, it wouldnt be a surprise if her whole goal was dictated by emotion and being hurt - it seems to be the main reason for her actions, weakness, just an idealistic girl who got bitter because the world wasnt the way she wanted it to be - more of teenage drama.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

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Beniboybling
01.18.2013 , 07:59 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
what? isnt ultimate power enough to be happy? not every owner of the knife keeps it for action purpose, there are those who simply look at them and enjoy fabrics. preserving power is required, after all, when you have a good time obliterating those lesser beings, they have this horrible attitutde to meddle with your plans, so it is required to stomp them from time to time, and when they grow stronger you realise that your stomping is going too slow, so more power is required, another funky goal to accomplish. endless cycle of carnage. meaningful, for him it was definately meaningful, he enjoyed power, pulling strings, he enjoyed many things.

Sith Emperor afraid of death? he seems to despite it rather than fear. and there is nothing idiotic and insane/stupid in wanting death after experiencing many things, after all a true death is one of those experiences he lacked, after achieving what he wanted, tasting it, death seems to be a good choice in the end.

Anakin was impulsive and young, it is difficult to tell if he got consumed by anything more than being jelous, he didnt want to kill her, and he didnt kill her, she lost a will to live because ( probably because of her slow mind ) and Nihilus, he was simply ill and hungry because of it.

She was just an old woman, pathetic and weak, it wouldnt be a surprise if her whole goal was dictated by emotion and being hurt - it seems to be the main reason for her actions, weakness, just an idealistic girl who got bitter because the world wasnt the way she wanted it to be - more of teenage drama.
Fair point. But power for powers sake seems rather pointless. I think all Sith should have a goal other than power that they really want to achieve. But that's detracting from my point. My point is that it is the dark side that fuels that desire for power, not themselves. Take away the dark side and they would want something different. Not the case for everyone but for most. The dark side if not properly controlled twists the user and turns them into something they are not, and to lose ones identity is a sad fate indeed.

And the Sith Emperor is afraid of death. Or at least he is according to the writers of SWTOR. It says in one of his codexes that the only thing he feared was death. Yes I expect he 'hated' death. But then again you can't really hate an intangible concept. And he definitely feared it, because it held power over him. But yes, the Emperor did have a goal in the sense he sought to overcome death and achieve immortality. I think I'd class him as an Uber-Sith because he was like that from birth. So that's three. Did he let himself die because he wanted to experience death? I doubt it, he had plenty of time do so when he conquered the entire universe. And his fear of death would suggest otherwise. I think the JK just bested him. But that's a debate for another time.

No he didn't kill her, but Force choking her is just as bad. Anakin wasn't driven to kill Padme out of jealously. That makes little sense. If you re-watch the scene its obvious his dark side fueled emotions have clouded his vision. At first he tries to convince Padme to join him, logical. But then he becomes convinced Padme brought Obi-Wan to kill him which is just plain illogical. And we know its not true. Basically he had become consumed by the dark side and failed to control his emotions. That's why Obi Wan defeated him, because he had not yet learned to focus his power. And yes Nihilus was 'ill' he had caught something called the corrupted-by-the-dark-side-until-nothing-is-left-but-a-hollow-shell disease. Perfect example of what happens to Sith who fail to control the dark side and let it control them.

And Traya was anything but weak. She bested pretty much everyone apart from the Exile. Who was one of the most powerful Jedi who had ever lived. Yes she was bitter and twisted, but those emotions were her own and not fueled by the dark side to such an extent that they drove her. She despised the Jedi Masters for what they did to her, but her ultimate plan was not to kill them, that was just a stepping stone, and she killed them more so because they attempted to cut the Exile of from the Force. Her ultimate goal was to deafen everyone to the Force, because she saw how it manipulated and controlled its users and caused unending death across the galaxy. You can compare her to a teenage girl who was upset because everything didn't go her way. But that's irrelevant, all that matters was that her goals weren't fueled/motivated by the dark side - they were her own. She was not obsessed with power, she was completely prepared to give it up. To her it was a tool, nothing more.

P.S. Gaining in the power in the darkside is not 'funky' - Sith are not hippies.

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Surinen
01.18.2013 , 08:12 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Fair point. But power for powers sake seems rather pointless. I think all Sith should have a goal other than power that they really want to achieve. But that's detracting from my point. My point is that it is the dark side that fuels that desire for power, not themselves. Take away the dark side and they would want something different. Not the case for everyone but for most. The dark side if not properly controlled twists the user and turns them into something they are not, and to lose ones identity is a sad fate indeed.

And the Sith Emperor is afraid of death. Or at least he is according to the writers of SWTOR. It says in one of his codexes that the only thing he feared was death. Yes I expect he 'hated' death. But then again you can't really hate an intangible concept. And he definitely feared it, because it held power over him. But yes, the Emperor did have a goal in the sense he sought to overcome death and achieve immortality. I think I'd class him as an Uber-Sith because he was like that from birth. So that's three. Did he let himself die because he wanted to experience death? I doubt it, he had plenty of time do so when he conquered the entire universe. And his fear of death would suggest otherwise. I think the JK just bested him. But that's a debate for another time.

No he didn't kill her, but Force choking her is just as bad. Anakin wasn't driven to kill Padme out of jealously. That makes little sense. If you re-watch the scene its obvious his dark side fueled emotions have clouded his vision. At first he tries to convince Padme to join him, logical. But then he becomes convinced Padme brought Obi-Wan to kill him which is just plain illogical. And we know its not true. Basically he had become consumed by the dark side and failed to control his emotions. That's why Obi Wan defeated him, because he had not yet learned to focus his power. And yes Nihilus was 'ill' he had caught something called the corrupted-by-the-dark-side-until-nothing-is-left-but-a-hollow-shell disease. Perfect example of what happens to Sith who fail to control the dark side and let it control them.

And Traya was anything but weak. She bested pretty much everyone apart from the Exile. Who was one of the most powerful Jedi who had ever lived. Yes she was bitter and twisted, but those emotions were her own and not fueled by the dark side to such an extent that they drove her. She despised the Jedi Masters for what they did to her, but her ultimate plan was not to kill them, that was just a stepping stone, and she killed them more so because they attempted to cut the Exile of from the Force. Her ultimate goal was to deafen everyone to the Force, because she saw how it manipulated and controlled its users and caused unending death across the galaxy. You can compare her to a teenage girl who was upset because everything didn't go her way. But that's irrelevant, all that matters was that her goals weren't fueled/motivated by the dark side - they were her own. She was not obsessed with power, she was completely prepared to give it up. To her it was a tool, nothing more.

P.S. Gaining in the power in the darkside is not 'funky' - Sith are not hippies.
thats what I said in the first post about your categorization: you attach values to actions; you say that this is and that is pointless - to me, it holds the same value, if they enjoy it, then why not. ultimate goals seems to be much of a burden and chore that you need to follow every day to have something.

one little force choke, suffocating drives endorphines, she was definately enjoying herself in his grip. I dont exactly remember that scene, but he thought that she is conspiring with Obi Wan, heck, I wouldnt be even surprised if he thought that she is romancing him, of course, dark side affected him, but it was his own fault in the first place, he seemed to be irrational and impulsive from the start.

who knows, maybe their bitterness bloomed because of the dark side influence - but teenage girl nontheless.
and that is how we skipped main topic to focus on your categories.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

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Beniboybling
01.18.2013 , 08:25 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
thats what I said in the first post about your categorization: you attach values to actions; you say that this is and that is pointless - to me, it holds the same value, if they enjoy it, then why not. ultimate goals seems to be much of a burden and chore that you need to follow every day to have something.

one little force choke, suffocating drives endorphines, she was definately enjoying herself in his grip. I dont exactly remember that scene, but he thought that she is conspiring with Obi Wan, heck, I wouldnt be even surprised if he thought that she is romancing him, of course, dark side affected him, but it was his own fault in the first place, he seemed to be irrational and impulsive from the start.

who knows, maybe their bitterness bloomed because of the dark side influence - but teenage girl nontheless.
and that is how we skipped main topic to focus on your categories.
OK I see, and I agree. But my point was not so much that the actions/goals of Raw Sith and Focused Sith lacked value. But that they were not their own. Before they embraced the dark side those desires were non-existent, but were manifested by the dark side which drove them to do things, normally to seek power. In such away they lose some of their autonomy, and their identity.

And no, I don't think Padme got any kind of kick by being suffocated by her love. And even if in some crazy universe she did, I doubt that was Anakin's intention. Take a look at the scene again. Sure Anakin is rash and impulsive, but non-dark side Anakin would never had done that. Consider the events but minus the Force and the dark side. Let's say Anakin joins the non-Force sensitive Emperor so they can use the resources of the galaxy to create a cure to save Padme. But in exchange he has to do 'immoral' things for the Emperor to establish his Galactic Empire. Padme disagrees and tries to stop him, Obi Wan appears. Would Anakin make the assumption that Padme brought Obi Wan there to kill him? No, she would never do that, she loved him and Anakin knew that. And it wasn't true anyway.

And listen to what Obi Wan says:

Anakin: You will not take her from me!

Obi Wan: Your anger and your lust for power have already done that.

Yes, of course this view is coloured by his Jedi beliefs. But it rings true, Anakin had become blinded by the dark side and deluded that he hadn't just force choked Padme to near death. And that if she ever recovered, she would possibly join him. Big dark side cloud over his head.

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Surinen
01.18.2013 , 08:46 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
OK I see, and I agree. But my point was not so much that the actions/goals of Raw Sith and Focused Sith lacked value. But that they were not their own. Before they embraced the dark side those desires were non-existent, but were manifested by the dark side which drove them to do things, normally to seek power. In such away they lose some of their autonomy, and their identity.

And no, I don't think Padme got any kind of kick by being suffocated by her love. And even if in some crazy universe she did, I doubt that was Anakin's intention. Take a look at the scene again. Sure Anakin is rash and impulsive, but non-dark side Anakin would never had done that. Consider the events but minus the Force and the dark side. Let's say Anakin joins the non-Force sensitive Emperor so they can use the resources of the galaxy to create a cure to save Padme. But in exchange he has to do 'immoral' things for the Emperor to establish his Galactic Empire. Padme disagrees and tries to stop him, Obi Wan appears. Would Anakin make the assumption that Padme brought Obi Wan there to kill him? No, she would never do that, she loved him and Anakin knew that. And it wasn't true anyway.

And listen to what Obi Wan says:

Anakin: You will not take her from me!

Obi Wan: Your anger and your lust for power have already done that.

Yes, of course this view is coloured by his Jedi beliefs. But it rings true, Anakin had become blinded by the dark side and deluded that he hadn't just force choked Padme to near death. And that if she ever recovered, she would possibly join him. Big dark side cloud over his head.
their ambition before embracing the dark side, depends on who it was, a jedi was obliged to follow the code, so his ambition were different, he maybe disagreed and wanted things differently but he obeyed. also some non cultist force user, if his usage of force was basic and then he learned how to harness it then of course he understood what he is able to do better than before so his goals changed.

now when I watched it, I'm more than sure that she deserved to die, from the beginning he said that Obi Wan cared about THEM what Anakin repeauts "US?" , then she step back from him, she is telling him that he was a good man, then she admits that obi wan was right, she says that she knows him no longer and all that horrible mumbling which follows it. she even step back. no wonder that his own nature and dark side made a little bit of explosive effect. what he proposed her was better than what they had, also, she, like a naive girl proposed to move somewhere, her persistance in denying right to his vision about her death and ignorance - well, that whole clip was irritating to be honest, another silly woman with their idealistic approach. he cared about her, so what the difference if he killed younglings, obliterated half of the galaxy or not. she was his solely obsession. she didnt say that he chose difficult path, or sacrifised order to save her etc. she just started to whine. it is much more her fault than his for what happend.

he would probably assume, if Obi Wan, was some kind of moralist who completely disagreed with Anakins actions, especially after events of killing some kids then there is high possibility he would act this way, even without force.

I doubt that she would join him, shes, well, clearly too stupid for that.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

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Beniboybling
01.18.2013 , 09:02 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
their ambition before embracing the dark side, depends on who it was, a jedi was obliged to follow the code, so his ambition were different, he maybe disagreed and wanted things differently but he obeyed. also some non cultist force user, if his usage of force was basic and then he learned how to harness it then of course he understood what he is able to do better than before so his goals changed.

now when I watched it, I'm more than sure that she deserved to die, from the beginning he said that Obi Wan cared about THEM what Anakin repeauts "US?" , then she step back from him, she is telling him that he was a good man, then she admits that obi wan was right, she says that she knows him no longer and all that horrible mumbling which follows it. she even step back. no wonder that his own nature and dark side made a little bit of explosive effect. what he proposed her was better than what they had, also, she, like a naive girl proposed to move somewhere, her persistance in denying right to his vision about her death and ignorance - well, that whole clip was irritating to be honest, another silly woman with their idealistic approach. he cared about her, so what the difference if he killed younglings, obliterated half of the galaxy or not. she was his solely obsession. she didnt say that he chose difficult path, or sacrifised order to save her etc. she just started to whine. it is much more her fault than his for what happend.

he would probably assume, if Obi Wan, was some kind of moralist who completely disagreed with Anakins actions, especially after events of killing some kids then there is high possibility he would act this way, even without force.

I doubt that she would join him, shes, well, clearly too stupid for that.
Maybe, maybe not. But that defines what kind of Sith they are.

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Surinen
01.18.2013 , 09:14 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Maybe, maybe not. But that defines what kind of Sith they are.
they are all just Sith, troubled beings full of golden hearts - on a platter.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

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Beniboybling
01.18.2013 , 09:18 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
they are all just Sith, troubled beings full of golden hearts - on a platter.
Golden Hearts? Not really. Most Sith would probably disagree. Troubled beings yes, but stages of trouble, Raw, Focused and Uber Focused. To be dark side is to be in constant struggle with the Force, these categories represent what stages in that struggle Sith reach. Few Sith fully overcome the Force. The problem is that sometimes you have to be prepared to let go of power, and most Sith simply aren't prepared to do that.