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Driod rights.


MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.16.2013 , 11:51 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
I think the point is that if the droid technology can decide for itself to not pull the trigger does that count as free will? Or does it just count as complex programming? The hardcode in that droid might have an algorithm running to determine how much that individual means in the grand scheme of things and could be coded to accept whatever punishment might be inflicted to it instead.

At the end of the day the human brain is just a complex computer made of flesh instead of whatever they make computers out of these days. There will come a point down the line that we figure out how the brain works and can replicate it. Actually most likely due to knowing that light travels faster than electric we will be able to make a brain that works on light so computers will end up more intelligent than us.

Also I think humans are programmed, you may think it is free will stopping you pulling that trigger but it is more like the coded belief that life is precious making you feel like pulling the trigger is a bad thing. That is programming.

There is really no such thing as free will except in a total anarchic system, but an anarchic system will never be, because by its very nature it would never occur and never last. Our will is always subverted by what we are programmed to believe is the correct way to behave. Ask yourself if you would feel guilty for shooting your best friend in the face, the guilt you would feel is programmed in, and anyone who doesn't feel that guild is labelled as a mental deviant, even though technically they are the ones with actual free will because they can make their decisions free of this programming.
Yes. Humans are 'programmed', but not in the way (I think) you think. There are 2 big differences between a human and droid :
1. the soul
2. droids are man-made. Humans are God-made.
(I don't expect you to agree with me on this)

internaty's Avatar


internaty
01.16.2013 , 09:42 PM | #32
Good to see this topic is discussed instead of turning into a flame war.

My views:
Everything that has the ability to make a choice has free will and there for is equile.

How they make that choice doesnt really mather.

Some humans make very canculated move's others lissen to there desire's.

The main difference between a machine and a person is the ability to make a choice.

Example: if a door is programed to close at 9:00 it will simple close.

Like wise a person can close a door.
The difference is the door in question CANT stay open because it is programed to close.
A person can chooice to keep the door open even when order to close them.

(sorry i dont know the exact words but it came down too)
To quote mass effect 3 evi: I am programed to keep this ship running effecent is the eqivial to the humans surivial need.
Like wise when i learn something benefitial to my programming recieve it as a possetive impute:
Thus i call it fun for short.

All in all free will for me is the difference between a person and a machine.

As for star wars driods.

<points at deretive 7: this is why we memory wipe driods.

To dangerous to allow.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

MilesTeg_cy's Avatar


MilesTeg_cy
01.17.2013 , 04:42 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Yes. Humans are 'programmed', but not in the way (I think) you think. There are 2 big differences between a human and droid :
1. the soul
2. droids are man-made. Humans are God-made.
(I don't expect you to agree with me on this)
1. For me what you call a soul is nothing different from a droids software. Still programmable.
2. If you believe that we are god-made that makes us no different from a droid bec. both a droid and a human being are "made". If someone or something makes anything, gives it a purpose and condition it to act for what it is made for. At that point we are no different from a droid in your point of view. Also for a believer there is a concept of destiny. If we are destined to do something and there is no way that we can act differently then this a god made programming. If we have free will than there is no destiny or programming.

My thoughts about this is like we are programmed by society and other physical and emotional factors-conditioned in a way- but this is nothing like a destiny. While living a normal life we are simply conditioned as any other person in our society. The kind of conditioning I mentioned before is different from this. If someone is conditioned(programmed) to do something special like go and kill another person this is conditioning with a special purpose. If a conditioned person can refuse to kill this is why some other conditioning kicks in and takes control, like "killing a man is wrong". This is just a fight between programmings, that's all. We are only tools, just like the programmed droids.

There is no universal right or wrong, there is only choice. If a droid is programmed to make a choice between several possibilities this is not free will. This is again programming. But there is something called "feelings" for living things, at least for humans. Now, that feelings are your software and they are the ones that are conditioned(programmed) to make or not to make you do things. Those feelings will make you feel like killing is wrong if your other feeling, "killing is a must" fails to domain. This is not a choice just the power of programming. Feeling like doing the right thing is not free will, it is just a result of another conditioning.

Again, these are just my thoughts here. Didn't mean to offend anyone. If I did without knowing I'm sorry in advance
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted. - Frank Herbert

MsMalice's Avatar


MsMalice
01.17.2013 , 07:28 AM | #34
The idea of sentience in droids is nothing but the human tendency to apply human characteristics (emotions, self-awareness, personality etc) to non-sentient beings or inanimate objects.

I do not even believe the Star Wars universe is technologically advanced enough to recreate something as complex as human sentience. Until then, droids are nothing but machines that should do what they were made to do. Yeah, I know it's fiction, but the idea of sentient droids is just so childish I can't take it seriously.
RAYE
R.I.P. JIRAYA

TheSelkie's Avatar


TheSelkie
01.17.2013 , 07:36 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by MilesTeg_cy View Post
My thoughts about this is like we are programmed by society and other physical and emotional factors-conditioned in a way- but this is nothing like a destiny. While living a normal life we are simply conditioned as any other person in our society. The kind of conditioning I mentioned before is different from this. If someone is conditioned(programmed) to do something special like go and kill another person this is conditioning with a special purpose. If a conditioned person can refuse to kill this is why some other conditioning kicks in and takes control, like "killing a man is wrong".
While I agree with several of your points, I still disagree with your seemingly interchangeable use of programming and conditioning. There's a very important difference.

"If a conditioned person can refuse to kill this is why some other conditioning kicks in and takes control, like "killing a man is wrong"." I disagree with this too. Take anyone who has murdered, not for profit or gain (Jack the Ripper etc.). They were all conditioned not to kill, but they chose to ignore that. There was no other conditioning kicking in saying "killing is ok". They simply decided to ignore everything they'd previously been told was right and wrong. Someone who's conditioned can do that, something that's programmed cannot.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.17.2013 , 07:51 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by MilesTeg_cy View Post
1. For me what you call a soul is nothing different from a droids software. Still programmable.
2. If you believe that we are god-made that makes us no different from a droid bec. both a droid and a human being are "made". If someone or something makes anything, gives it a purpose and condition it to act for what it is made for. At that point we are no different from a droid in your point of view. Also for a believer there is a concept of destiny. If we are destined to do something and there is no way that we can act differently then this a god made programming. If we have free will than there is no destiny or programming.

My thoughts about this is like we are programmed by society and other physical and emotional factors-conditioned in a way- but this is nothing like a destiny. While living a normal life we are simply conditioned as any other person in our society. The kind of conditioning I mentioned before is different from this. If someone is conditioned(programmed) to do something special like go and kill another person this is conditioning with a special purpose. If a conditioned person can refuse to kill this is why some other conditioning kicks in and takes control, like "killing a man is wrong". This is just a fight between programmings, that's all. We are only tools, just like the programmed droids.

There is no universal right or wrong, there is only choice. If a droid is programmed to make a choice between several possibilities this is not free will. This is again programming. But there is something called "feelings" for living things, at least for humans. Now, that feelings are your software and they are the ones that are conditioned(programmed) to make or not to make you do things. Those feelings will make you feel like killing is wrong if your other feeling, "killing is a must" fails to domain. This is not a choice just the power of programming. Feeling like doing the right thing is not free will, it is just a result of another conditioning.

Again, these are just my thoughts here. Didn't mean to offend anyone. If I did without knowing I'm sorry in advance
Very interesting points. Obviously (being a believer) I disagree with you. BUT if you don't believe in God then I guess the conclusion that you've come up with is the most logical one there is.

As for your first paragraph, a soul is very different from anything that a droid has. Obviously we aren't going to agreee on this specific so I won't bother getting into it.

But, for argument's sake, let's say that God did create us. Look at the creator of a droid and the creater of man to see the differences between man and droid: creater of droid: man, a being with limited knowledge and power.
Creater of man: God, a being with unlimited knowledge and power.

^^ There we see how drastically different droids and humans can turn out. And yes, there are a lot of believers who believe in the since of 'destiny' that you mentioned, however there are also people who moreso believe in free will. I'm believe in the latter.

I believe in free will simply because of the varying choices I've made. One day I'll be lazy and I won't get anything done, and the second day I'll be a workaholic. This variance is often due to something called attitude. Our attitude is something like our current state of emotions. Droids do not have attitudes or emotions.

And this 'conditioning' you speak of is what I would call character. Character , in a way, is kinda like the build-up of choices and experiences. Your decisions are gonna take you some place and that place has the potential to change your character. Due to the change in character, you'll make different choices in different scenarios. Droids (as far as I know) don't have the potential to change. They will simply make the same choice for a scenario, and they will repeat that choice even if the scenario is, essentially, repeated. Regardless of what they experience, they'll always make choices based off of their initial programming.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.17.2013 , 07:53 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by TheSelkie View Post
While I agree with several of your points, I still disagree with your seemingly interchangeable use of programming and conditioning. There's a very important difference.

"If a conditioned person can refuse to kill this is why some other conditioning kicks in and takes control, like "killing a man is wrong"." I disagree with this too. Take anyone who has murdered, not for profit or gain (Jack the Ripper etc.). They were all conditioned not to kill, but they chose to ignore that. There was no other conditioning kicking in saying "killing is ok". They simply decided to ignore everything they'd previously been told was right and wrong. Someone who's conditioned can do that, something that's programmed cannot.
^^ Excellent point. People can go out and do crazy things, regardless of what's logical or how they've been conditioned.

EDIT: like Jason Bourne? Anyone?

MilesTeg_cy's Avatar


MilesTeg_cy
01.17.2013 , 09:23 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by TheSelkie View Post
While I agree with several of your points, I still disagree with your seemingly interchangeable use of programming and conditioning. There's a very important difference.

"If a conditioned person can refuse to kill this is why some other conditioning kicks in and takes control, like "killing a man is wrong"." I disagree with this too. Take anyone who has murdered, not for profit or gain (Jack the Ripper etc.). They were all conditioned not to kill, but they chose to ignore that. There was no other conditioning kicking in saying "killing is ok". They simply decided to ignore everything they'd previously been told was right and wrong. Someone who's conditioned can do that, something that's programmed cannot.
What was the reason for Jack to bypass all previous conditionings and start to kill people? Every action has a reaction. Everything in life has a reason. Was it a mental problem or the trauma he had in his childhood? When the reasons come to light answers come with them. Even Jack the Ripper had his reasons to kill. Those reasons overridden his previous programming.

Now this is infinite loop as you see What ever you say here, I give a similar answer. And what ever answer I give you, you'll give me a similar response. This is the way we see things, that's all
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted. - Frank Herbert

internaty's Avatar


internaty
01.17.2013 , 11:12 AM | #39
please stop turning this into a religion threat befor eagames closes the topic:

This is a topic about star wars driods inside the star wars universe.

The closes thing in star wars to god/allah/allmighty divine is the force.

So please dont bring real life into star wars.

Focus purly on the driods being able to develop sentinance and/or earn the same right as other sentinant being's acording too the rules of star wars not real life.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

TheSelkie's Avatar


TheSelkie
01.17.2013 , 11:23 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by MilesTeg_cy View Post
What was the reason for Jack to bypass all previous conditionings and start to kill people?
He doesn't have to have a reason - he has free will. He can simply choose to ignore his conditioning, that's the fundamental difference between conditioning and programming. You can't force a human to do anything. We're conditioned our whole lives to know killing is wrong, but we can still do it, we don't have to "bypass" our conditioning, we can ignore it. My calculator can't ignore it's programming, when I ask it what 2+2 is, it has to say 4.