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Full Tank Tree Jugg > Hybrid Jugg

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Full Tank Tree Jugg > Hybrid Jugg

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.16.2013 , 04:16 PM | #1
Thread title is wrong and its not updating it when i try to edit it. hybrid tanks take much less damage per second than a full tank build

Edit: I didn't know hybrid gets the same blade barrier and more frequent. And people asre reporting 993 damage absorbed, but this will vary with bonus healing. At a balanced 1800 mitigation pool we have the following taken dps for a 3000dps boss with 10% internal elemental and 50% of attacks at 100% accuracy and the rest 90%.

full: 601.5, hybrid at 561

using 990/9 absorbed dps for hybrid and 990/12 for full we get 519 for full and 451 for hybrid.

this is all based on info you can find in the tanking stat weights thread, along with the damage reduction info from AMR of full 63 jugg tanks.

considering that bonus healing increases the barrier absorb amount, and i think strength influences this stat, i think goign with the high strength mods and the high endurance enhancements is the way to go.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
01.16.2013 , 05:46 PM | #2
I'm curious how sonic barrier makes the full spec come out ahead? The sonic barrier mitigates less damage as a full jugg as you can only have it up once every 12 seconds as opposed to every 9 seconds in a hybrid build.

pieceofjunk's Avatar


pieceofjunk
01.16.2013 , 06:25 PM | #3
I play a Guardian Tank, same as Jugg, and I disagree. I have run Full Defense builds and a hybrid build. I have looked at the logs for each in the same fight and the Hybrid comes out ahead.

The 4% DR is more effective than a extra 4% Chance to shield an attack.

As a Hybrid I get Blade Barrier more often. 9 seconds versus 12, and your absorb number seems low. In logs mine absorbs 994 damage every time.

Also in my hybrid spec when I leap to start a combat I get an addition 20% DR for 4 seconds, which is not to be discounted.

I found in Hybrid I took 18 DPS less, while that doesn't seem like much in a fight that goes 5 minutes it works out to 5,400 less damage taken.

Using a Tanking spreadsheet from the MMO mechanics forums my Effective health is high in the Hybrid build and that does not take into account the increased use of Blade Barrier.

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
01.16.2013 , 07:05 PM | #4
Which build are you using for the hybrid? Our guild tank is a hybrid 17/22/2 who takes the Deafening defense. So instead of 4% shield and 4% internal, he gains 4% damage reduction on everything.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.16.2013 , 07:20 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
this is all based on info you can find in the tanking stat weights thread, along with the damage reduction info from AMR of full 63 jugg tanks.
I would really recommend you check your math again. The only thing, from a mitigation standpoint, that Full defense has over the hybrid is 4% shield chance. Considering that stat allocation provides to all of 50% absorb value at best, this means all of 2% reduction in M/R damage. hybrid's advantages are 25% more Blade Storm (9 sec CD compared to 12 sec) and 4% K/E DR: since M/R attacks can only ever be K/E damage (there are no I/E M/R attacks in game), you're getting roughly twice the mitigation gains against M/R attacks (it's not explicitly double because DR and shield mitigation are calculated at separate points; the DR is actually going to contribute *more* because it applies against the ~67% of the attack that aren't parried rather than 33% that are shielded) as you would be getting the bonus to shield chance. And that's completely ignoring the higher contributions from Blade Storm.

I would *really* like to see the formulas you're using to draw your conclusion since, in all honestly, everything you're saying *flies* in the face of pretty basic math.
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Darth_Dreselus
01.17.2013 , 02:15 AM | #6
I run Immortal and know that Hybrid get's more in terms of pure mitigation but the difference is miniscule, to quote an earlier post.

Quote: Originally Posted by pieceofjunk View Post
I found in Hybrid I took 18 DPS less, while that doesn't seem like much in a fight that goes 5 minutes it works out to 5,400 less damage taken.
From a healer PoV that's just not a noticeable difference and RNG will have more of an impact, as will any derps by DPS.

I prefer Immortal on snap threat basis and because CB looks a lot better than Impale (not sure about Guardian animations). Resource management is also easier.
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
01.17.2013 , 03:01 AM | #7
i was doing this for a guildy so im not terribly familiar.

so youre all saying that the hybrid build gets 993 damage absorbed every 9 seconds from sonic barrier or whatever too? that makes hybrid come out WAY ahead. sosmoen told me that full spec was better cuz the absorbed damage, but i must have misunderstood.

will post methodology tomorrow. barrier amount depends on power and mainstats, so i willl have to approximate that part.

without considering the blade barrier we have

full: 789.3, hybrid at 760.5, These numbers are based on my intial calculation on two builds from AMR and not completely equal ones. the original post has completely equal builds.

using 990/9 absorbed dps for hybrid and 990/12 for full we get 706.8 for full and 650.5 for hybrid.

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eVentHoriZn
01.17.2013 , 03:09 AM | #8
I also run the full immortal spec juggernaut, the survivability is minimally worse but the threat generation is so much better with my rotation that I find its better for the group.
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wadecounty
01.17.2013 , 09:31 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by eVentHoriZn View Post
I also run the full immortal spec juggernaut, the survivability is minimally worse but the threat generation is so much better with my rotation that I find its better for the group.
I highly doubt the threat generation is much better. I'd like to know what your opener is like, I could easily see an opener from the Hybrid spec doing more damage and threat.

In the first 15 seconds of a fight, a full Immortal will get off 1 Crushing Blow, a hybrid will get off 2 Impales, and Impale actually does the same amount of threat as Crushing Blow, if not a bit more, because of how much more damage it does. You also get more Screams in (your third best threat move as a Jugg because of the damage it does), and the damage from Backhand/Hilt Strike is pathetic enough that its high threat modifier doesn't even really matter, only makes it about on par with a Scream or Smash.

The only real advantage for an Immortal Jugg for snap threat early on in a fight is 20% more damage on Smash. But being able to use 2 Impales before an Immortal can use 2 Crushing Blow's, or 3 Impales in the time Immortal gets 2 CB's, is a rather big advantage for the Hybrid spec for snap threat. Not to mention Hybrid Jugg gets 3% accuracy from the Vengeance tree which helps to make sure Impale hits (no help on Crushing Blow for Immortal), and it also gets a bleed that does about 20% of the damage Scream does tacked onto it.

The only area that I do think Immortal can shine is in long term sustained damage/threat, because of how much better their Focus/Rage management will be over the course of a long fight. But sustained threat is never an issue in TOR because of how taunts work.

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Kitru
01.17.2013 , 11:30 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
without considering the blade barrier we have

full: 789.3, hybrid at 760.5
I still want to know how you somehow managed to determine that 4% shield chance is worth more than 4% K/E DR (which is blatantly false to pretty much anyone that knows anything about mitigation in TOR). Even *ignoring* Blade Barrier, the hybrid should have better mitigation because that's the only difference in passive mitigation: 4% K/E DR compared to 4% shield chance.
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