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Driod rights.


TheSelkie's Avatar


TheSelkie
01.14.2013 , 09:22 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Liquidacid View Post
it does the same for droids or any true AI... the flaw in your argument is that any true AI can learn and adapt just as well as any organic... any decent AI could and will learn, adapt, evolve and have as many random sparks as a person will...

no offence to you but free will is an illusion... as you said we are conditioned... what you think is free will isn't... it's just a combination of random neurons firing and your experience... if you think there is some magical process in your brain that can not be duplicated in a computer you are mistaken
Oh I wasn't arguing against AI's. I was just saying that humans have free will. My position on the matter would be that if someone or something has feelings, the ability to react emotionally to stimuli then it deserves comparable rights to a person.

Back on the issue of free will, I'm afraid I disagree with you. I suppose it depends on what your view of free will. There isn't really a right or wrong answer, but for me the ability to act is opposition to everything I've been conditioned to believe is free will. I'll happily admit that an AI could replicate the process if it became sufficiently advanced (when I said computer I was referring to a modern computer) at which point it will exhibit free will.

It's a philosophical matter and there's not really a right or wrong answer.

Xeta's Avatar


Xeta
01.15.2013 , 12:04 AM | #22
IG-88 became a fully-sentient assassin capable of killing its creators within seconds of activation, something he was obviously not programmed for. Some droids can achieve full sentience, so they could get rights I suppose.
Xeta - Bounty Hunter, Mercenary, Assassin, Rancor Handler, etc.
Formerly Flurry (SWG), currently The Bastion (lol)

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Liquidacid's Avatar


Liquidacid
01.15.2013 , 02:48 AM | #23
you know what's funny... this conversation sparked my interest so I went and was reading a few SW articles on the droid rebellions and such and found a documenterary in which good old George that says that C-3P0, and thus by extension all droids, have no soul.... lol


Quote: Originally Posted by TheSelkie View Post
Oh I wasn't arguing against AI's. I was just saying that humans have free will. My position on the matter would be that if someone or something has feelings, the ability to react emotionally to stimuli then it deserves comparable rights to a person.

Back on the issue of free will, I'm afraid I disagree with you. I suppose it depends on what your view of free will. There isn't really a right or wrong answer, but for me the ability to act is opposition to everything I've been conditioned to believe is free will. I'll happily admit that an AI could replicate the process if it became sufficiently advanced (when I said computer I was referring to a modern computer) at which point it will exhibit free will.

It's a philosophical matter and there's not really a right or wrong answer.
eh it's not really a philosophical matter for me ... I was referring to the straight definition of the term which is simply the ability of a person to make choices... and that is something which almost every droid in SW has been shown to have... which makes sense because if they couldn't make choices and act independently they wouldn't be very useful... I mean ever the very simple courier mouse droids show emotional responses and free will... Chewy roars, it squeals in "fear" and turns around to run away... that is straight up an emotional derived use of free will.... if it didn't have free will it would have simply driven around him and kept going on to where it was supposed to be going.. and that is just a very simple courier droid that honestly doesn't NEED sapient programming to fulfill it's job and yet has demonstrated the ability to make "choices" and not even straight logical ones...

at the end of the day tho this is a topic like slavery which can be debated to death because it's dependent more on a societies "opinion" than it is on actual fact
"bibo ergo sum" ( I drink, therefore I am)

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

MilesTeg_cy's Avatar


MilesTeg_cy
01.16.2013 , 04:18 AM | #24
@Liquidacid, exactly my toughts.

Some good coverage about free will here.

I've used "programmed" for humans for the resemblance to "conditioning" before. Conditioning is a programming for living things, nothing more. You can condition a totaly peaceful person for making a massacre.

A nice article here from Ken McLeod named Choice of Freedom.

"The illusion of choice is an indication of a lack of freedom". I believe this is the core of this argument here. We feel like we are more "free" as the number of choices increases. For me freedom and free will is about controlling those choices. It is not what you choose but what you can add to or remove from the choices. Said that, an human made AI is nothing different from that. You decide the choices for a droid. Unless it does not decide for its choices it is a metal slave without any free will.
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted. - Frank Herbert

Rahak's Avatar


Rahak
01.16.2013 , 07:37 AM | #25
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Squeaky

Squeaky was given some kind of rights.
Kagekvinde

TheSelkie's Avatar


TheSelkie
01.16.2013 , 08:04 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by MilesTeg_cy View Post
I've used "programmed" for humans for the resemblance to "conditioning" before. Conditioning is a programming for living things, nothing more. You can condition a totaly peaceful person for making a massacre.
I still disagree with this. If I programme a robot to go commit a massacre it goes and does it. End of story, it has no choice, it's been programmed. No matter how much you condition a person, when it comes to pulling the trigger they can still refuse. They might not, perhaps most of them would - but they can refuse. That's free will.

SquigglePenguin's Avatar


SquigglePenguin
01.16.2013 , 10:14 AM | #27
Droids are programmed to serve, There for they do not deserve such attention

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
01.16.2013 , 11:22 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by TheSelkie View Post
I still disagree with this. If I programme a robot to go commit a massacre it goes and does it. End of story, it has no choice, it's been programmed. No matter how much you condition a person, when it comes to pulling the trigger they can still refuse. They might not, perhaps most of them would - but they can refuse. That's free will.
I think the point is that if the droid technology can decide for itself to not pull the trigger does that count as free will? Or does it just count as complex programming? The hardcode in that droid might have an algorithm running to determine how much that individual means in the grand scheme of things and could be coded to accept whatever punishment might be inflicted to it instead.

At the end of the day the human brain is just a complex computer made of flesh instead of whatever they make computers out of these days. There will come a point down the line that we figure out how the brain works and can replicate it. Actually most likely due to knowing that light travels faster than electric we will be able to make a brain that works on light so computers will end up more intelligent than us.

Also I think humans are programmed, you may think it is free will stopping you pulling that trigger but it is more like the coded belief that life is precious making you feel like pulling the trigger is a bad thing. That is programming.

There is really no such thing as free will except in a total anarchic system, but an anarchic system will never be, because by its very nature it would never occur and never last. Our will is always subverted by what we are programmed to believe is the correct way to behave. Ask yourself if you would feel guilty for shooting your best friend in the face, the guilt you would feel is programmed in, and anyone who doesn't feel that guild is labelled as a mental deviant, even though technically they are the ones with actual free will because they can make their decisions free of this programming.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

TheSelkie's Avatar


TheSelkie
01.16.2013 , 11:36 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
Also I think humans are programmed, you may think it is free will stopping you pulling that trigger but it is more like the coded belief that life is precious making you feel like pulling the trigger is a bad thing. That is programming.
This is where I disagree with you. You say I'm programmed to believe that life is precious so I shouldn't kill. But I can kill. That's the difference, I'm conditioned to not kill which still leaves me a choice. That's free will.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.16.2013 , 11:43 AM | #30
No. Droids are not organic. They're computers. They have zero feelings. They shouldn't own property. They are property.