Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Invictos's Avatar


Invictos
01.11.2013 , 06:31 PM | #5191
Quote: Originally Posted by SelinaK View Post
Umm, this is the worst excuse I have ever read yet, the obvious solution here to make such cutscenes not look weird would be to not limit the height of all female characters to a head shorter than male ones in the first place. There's absolutely no reason for that other than trying to enforce the stereotype that all men are taller than all women which is simply not true. It's very damn annoying that the tallest, amazon-like, female character is actually.... A full head shorter than the tall male one.

Neither are "the norm", obviously, so why the hell put in that limit other than sexism.
Though I agree that the game should allow female characters to use the tallest male height, it's not a stereotype. Men are generally taller than women, and thus the tallest men will almost always be significantly taller than the tallest women. The developers' mistake has very little to do with sexism; it has much more to do with the fact that Bioware heavily underestimated how important character customization is in an MMO.

SWTOR flat-out sucks at character customization across the board. Some idiot in Austin probably thought that adding real-world-reminiscent limits on the relative size of females would help to immerse players, but unfortunately the opposite tends to be true: players will generally be more inclined to stay with an MMO if they can customize their characters to feel like unique individuals.

And yeah, apologies to BW if the word, "idiot," is a little harsh -- but seriously; I'm about fed up. It would be one thing if the game just sucked at character creation (it does), but that's just the tip of the ice berg here. Bioware spent a year showing us armor models in advertisements, trailers, on NPCs, and even the freaking character-creation screen that are unattainable for players in the game proper. And now, after a year of empty promises, EA/Bioware suddenly introduces some of the most-requested cosmetic options as $15 microtransactions. And if that isn't bad enough, the $15 doesn't even give you the outfit on more than one character. $15 doesn't even give you an outfit that you can transfer to a different character.

Yeah. Sorry for the mini, off-topic rant. I came back to this thread because I was heartened to see Hickman finally address the SGR crowd in his latest state of the game speech. I was also a little disappointed on your behalf, because what's coming in Makeb doesn't sound like it even scratches the surface of what SGR advocates have justifiably expected.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
01.11.2013 , 06:53 PM | #5192
Quote: Originally Posted by Invictos View Post
Yeah. Sorry for the mini, off-topic rant. I came back to this thread because I was heartened to see Hickman finally address the SGR crowd in his latest state of the game speech. I was also a little disappointed on your behalf, because what's coming in Makeb doesn't sound like it even scratches the surface of what SGR advocates have justifiably expected.
I'll be honest, if Bioware can start introducing SGRA's now, when they should have been in at launch, then it's possible they'll start introducing other things that should have realistically been in at launch: chat bubbles, hood toggles, chairs, that sort of thing.

And thank you also, for realising that a bunch of [Flirt]s with (presumably) throw-away NPCs doesn't match up with actual, fully voiced, fully storied, companion romances. I am sick to death of people telling us "oh meh gawd, you're getting some throw-away NPC [Flirt]s! Why can't you just be happy? Gawds, this is cutting into me getting PvP/PvE/Story Content/Pazaak racing!"

As if some how Bioware making more romances is going to make them suddenly give up the rest of the game. It's depressing that this game is in such a state that so many people are so paranoid about content they like. And instead of talking to Bioware, they take it out on people who are different to them.

Lent_San's Avatar


Lent_San
01.12.2013 , 10:03 AM | #5193
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
As if some how Bioware making more romances is going to make them suddenly give up the rest of the game. It's depressing that this game is in such a state that so many people are so paranoid about content they like. And instead of talking to Bioware, they take it out on people who are different to them.
It's a phenomenon that unfortunately is quite common in game communities. In WoW it was housing, or generally role playing content, that functioned as the scapegoat, people laying blame on people wanting it in since they would for some reason get less of a game because of that. Interestingly, when Blizz listened to the "vast majority" who didn't care about role playing content, they created "Cataclysm" and tanked. Now MoP is considered to be rather successful, I might suggest for the amount of fluff and RPG content it possesses, but there would still be people on the official WoW boards who'd tell me I'm wrong and suggest I should go elsewhere to find the game that's "for me".

Whenever someone brings up the "majority" argument, be very aware, since if what they suggest really reflects the opinions of "the vast majority", the vast majority is stupid.

On another note, I've been inspired by the recent discussions here (been lurking) and wrote something about being a female gamer and how we're some kind of a mystery to gaming companies. If you'd like to read, you'll find it here:

http://mellowtopia.tumblr.com/

It has a reference to the lack of SGR in SWTOR as well, if only a minor one.

Dremacilus's Avatar


Dremacilus
01.12.2013 , 10:20 AM | #5194
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Yes, but when the scientific fact is used to passive or micro-aggressively tell people how they're supposed to look, then you have a problem. Also height restrictions are part of "ideal woman" stereotypes (as well as "ideal man" stereotypes - Tom Cruise has to use boxes and such because he's 5'6" and therefore shorter than most other leads, including female leads who are often wearing 3-4" heels).

There are women who are over 6' and it used to be that these women would be "treated" for their height when they were growing girls, in the belief that if they were taller than most men, no one would want to marry them. Same thing happened to short boys.

Yes, taller women are somewhat rare, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be represented.

I should mention, though, that I think all the female models in this game have issues, and that height restrictions are only one of them.
If we accept that there is going to be a fixed number of body-types and not a number-modifier for centimeters, kg, weight distribution, etc, with each of the body-types being 'bigger' than the previous, you pretty much have 4 options:
1) Male=Female for all body-types 2) Male > Female for all body-types 3)Female > Male for all body-types
4) Mixed (i.e body-type 1: m>f, 2:f> m, etc)
The problem is that bioware has to pick only one of the 4 available (unless they took the time to give us an actual character creation tool, but they didn't....). However, no matter which one they picked they could 'offend' someone, at least by your reasoning. For instance with 4) a woman might be 'offended' and say, like you did, 'are short women supposed to be shorter than short men?' or with 1) ,a man might be offended and say 'are fat men supposed to be equally tall with fat women?'
When it comes to how one looks (and many other things), even forcing them to be 'equal' to others is restrictive and offensive. Bioware couldn't avoid not making a not-perfect choice, so they might as well go with the averages.

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
01.12.2013 , 03:48 PM | #5195
Two things -

First, @neohunterunico, I only have to respect the fact that people can have their own opinions. I am not obliged to respect the actual opinion they hold, especially if it isn't based in any fact or even in reality. In fact, I am just as entitled to hold an opinion that their opinion is a bunch of rubbish, and they should respect the fact that I can hold that opinion, even if their opinion of my opinion is that mine is rubbish too.

Second, the whole thing with character models is kind of a short cut many games (not just SWTOR) take because making scalable textures (for armour and the like) is a rather time consuming endeavour. Some games scale their character creation more, but you'll notice that most MMOs go for a simplistic approach - which might, in fact, have some scale sliders, but those sliders are limited in what they can do. Just look at Skyrim, a game known for it's attention to detail, and you'll see that you can't change your character's height, the weight sliders are quite limited, and most of the sliders are to do with the character's face.

At least in SWTOR we get a choice of four distinct body types (one very thin, one "normal", one significantly tall/muscular model, one "fat" model) even if they are uneven between male and female (the "fat" model in particular). If you're going to complain about extreme (and unrealistic) gender dimorphism in games, might I suggest you go and vent your annoyance at WoW first.

(And so I'm not comparing an apple to an orange - the character customization in GW2 might seem like it's probably more involved than in SWTOR, but the difference in heights you can choose is limited, and the difference in physiques are mostly illusionary based on skin texture, not on significant differences to the model.)
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
01.12.2013 , 06:07 PM | #5196
Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
It's a phenomenon that unfortunately is quite common in game communities. In WoW it was housing, or generally role playing content, that functioned as the scapegoat, people laying blame on people wanting it in since they would for some reason get less of a game because of that. Interestingly, when Blizz listened to the "vast majority" who didn't care about role playing content, they created "Cataclysm" and tanked. Now MoP is considered to be rather successful, I might suggest for the amount of fluff and RPG content it possesses, but there would still be people on the official WoW boards who'd tell me I'm wrong and suggest I should go elsewhere to find the game that's "for me".

Whenever someone brings up the "majority" argument, be very aware, since if what they suggest really reflects the opinions of "the vast majority", the vast majority is stupid.

On another note, I've been inspired by the recent discussions here (been lurking) and wrote something about being a female gamer and how we're some kind of a mystery to gaming companies. If you'd like to read, you'll find it here:

http://mellowtopia.tumblr.com/

It has a reference to the lack of SGR in SWTOR as well, if only a minor one.
It sould 3.3 million copies int he first 24 hours and recieved good critical reviews. How exactly did WoW: Catalysm...tank?

Ohamsie's Avatar


Ohamsie
01.12.2013 , 06:50 PM | #5197
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Two things -

First, @neohunterunico, I only have to respect the fact that people can have their own opinions. I am not obliged to respect the actual opinion they hold, especially if it isn't based in any fact or even in reality. In fact, I am just as entitled to hold an opinion that their opinion is a bunch of rubbish, and they should respect the fact that I can hold that opinion, even if their opinion of my opinion is that mine is rubbish too.

Second, the whole thing with character models is kind of a short cut many games (not just SWTOR) take because making scalable textures (for armour and the like) is a rather time consuming endeavour. Some games scale their character creation more, but you'll notice that most MMOs go for a simplistic approach - which might, in fact, have some scale sliders, but those sliders are limited in what they can do. Just look at Skyrim, a game known for it's attention to detail, and you'll see that you can't change your character's height, the weight sliders are quite limited, and most of the sliders are to do with the character's face.

At least in SWTOR we get a choice of four distinct body types (one very thin, one "normal", one significantly tall/muscular model, one "fat" model) even if they are uneven between male and female (the "fat" model in particular). If you're going to complain about extreme (and unrealistic) gender dimorphism in games, might I suggest you go and vent your annoyance at WoW first.

(And so I'm not comparing an apple to an orange - the character customization in GW2 might seem like it's probably more involved than in SWTOR, but the difference in heights you can choose is limited, and the difference in physiques are mostly illusionary based on skin texture, not on significant differences to the model.)
I just wish the heights and weights weren't so intricately tied together. If you want to play a short character, you're stuck being rail thin. No option for short with normal weight, short with muscular build, or short with fat build. It's kind of a bummer.
[THE EBON HAWK] The Groundflyer Legacy
Jedi Sentinel Oham | Sith Sorceror Catalon | Scoundrel Gartrick

Graydon's Avatar


Graydon
01.12.2013 , 09:07 PM | #5198
Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
Interestingly, when Blizz listened to the "vast majority" who didn't care about role playing content, they created "Cataclysm" and tanked. Now MoP is considered to be rather successful, I might suggest for the amount of fluff and RPG content it possesses, but there would still be people on the official WoW boards who'd tell me I'm wrong and suggest I should go elsewhere to find the game that's "for me".
Cataclysm tanked?? MMO companies would give their left eye for their expansions to experience the "failure" Cataclysm did.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
01.12.2013 , 09:57 PM | #5199
I'm quite looking forward to seeing how the SGR flirts are dealt with in RotHC. While it's not full SGRAs it'll at least be a snapshot of how they're intending to approach the whole matter.
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

DAWUSS's Avatar


DAWUSS
01.12.2013 , 10:30 PM | #5200
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohamsie View Post
I just wish the heights and weights weren't so intricately tied together. If you want to play a short character, you're stuck being rail thin. No option for short with normal weight, short with muscular build, or short with fat build. It's kind of a bummer.
And that's just the body. When you get into details like head and hair... I was driven nuts a few times trying to get the closest cookie-cutter selections that matched the character appearance I was going for.