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Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter > Mercenary
Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.10.2013 , 03:31 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
Nonsense. Spoken like a truly ignorant PVPer who only takes part in one aspect of the game. My opinion on the other hand comes from a decade of MMO experience in both PVP and PVE (SWTOR since beta, rank 14 and gladiator in WoW, WAR, AoC, etc.). If you actually READ my entire post you'd see that I acknowledge the fact that Mercs need a buff in their ABILITY to DPS in PVP, not the DPS itself.

Mercs already outperform most classes in raw DPS capability, you cannot just buff raw damage without considering what effect that would have on other parts of the game. The fact that Sniper, Mara and PT are capable of higher PVE DPS doesn't mean that Mercs need a buff in theirs, it means those classes are over performing, especially PT which is not even a pure DPS class. Assassins and operative have terrible DPS, and Sorcs aren't that great either, but I don't see you complaining that Mercs are capable of completely wiping the floor with them when it comes to DPS. Yet those same classes outperform Mercs in PVP. Clearly DPS is not the problem, but the ability to deliver it on the move and/or under pressure is. Buffing Merc damage would just skew the DPS balance even further. We should be boosting the lowest DPS classes and nerfing the highest, not boosting middle ones to the highest, leaving the low ones even more behind. Mara and Sniper should have a small edge on damage since it's all they can do, but the disparity of DPS across all classes is far beyond the promised 5%.

Bottom line is, you cannot just buff raw damage, improving mobility, defenses and ability to do unhindered damage is what's needed. That part of this thread I fully agreed with, but you started going off on a tangent about how Merc DPS needs a massive buff, which is complete nonsense. If Merc defense and mobility is improved, their already high damage capability would follow. Your talk of "flimsiness" of the Merc class is irrelevant, since even if Merc had 90% dmg reduction at all times, it would do nothing to improve their DPS when they have constant interrupts on them. Biggest problem for Mercs is how easily they're shut down. PTs are barely 10% ahead of Mercs in PVE, yet double to tripple their damage in PVP. This is not because the class has higher damage capability, but because most of its abilities are instant and can therefore DPS unhindered regardless of anyone being on it. This is why I said that what needs improvement the MOST for Mercs, is their ABILITY to do DPS under pressure. Hell, even just making Tracer Missile uninterpretable at all times would go a long way.

But you can go on with your irrational and ignorant suggestions that do not consider the consequences of your changes on all aspects of the game, I'm sure the dev's will love your approach.
what you are sayin is spot on: -----> giving Merc instant casting, like VG/PT.

from another post in regards to Merc vs. VG, as i experience it.

that's what got me started. i wanted a way to prove how much VG/assault was better than Merc/pyro. and the only way to properly debate is with facts, evidence, and testing/experimenting.

in a matter of hours, i proved, beyond a reasonable doubt (in my mind), how truly gimped Merc/PT is.

i've been playing Merc/PT full-time since 1.2. i've gotten him in all 61's, 63 barrels (all Black Hole) 100/35/75/1000+. my VG was in all 58's, 56's belt/bracer. he outperformed my Merc is almost every dummy test, spec, and situation. i've tested nearly everything. moving, not moving, kiting, melee range, specs...everything i have encountered in-game.

i've ran Battle for Ilum perhaps 100 time on my Merc, and on my 2nd run on my VG, i've achieved #3 DPS ever recorded. in the gear i gave my VG, from my Merc!!! (with NOTHING BiS).

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/T.../Darth+Serevin

i would gladly run any zone, anytime i am on, with(versus) the best DPS's in the game. and i would wager only marauders and snipers would be able to outperform VG consistantly. and even that is variable, based on fights and fight mechanics. (Darth Sev stunned me w/ about 5 seconds left in the fight, and i had already blown my escape CD )

BW can shove their metrics right up their Arse (Merc).

*EDIT* when left to free cast, Mercs(Arse) can put up very respectable #'s. but, so can PT/VG! how often in OPs/FPs are you able to just stand there DPS'n? in my experience, not all that much. and, PT/VG can still produce the max amount WHILE moving, kiting, in&outs, etc
.

you both have valid points.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.10.2013 , 04:01 PM | #112
While what you say is mostly true, I wouldn't agree that Merc DPS is that hindered in PVE. Lets not forget that they're still a ranged class, and that still holds some advantage over PTs. On target dummy there's no doubt that Sniper, Mara and PT out perform Mercs, but in reality most fights are not tank and spank and there are many factors that affect DPS uptime. Lets not forget that there are many encounters that are unfriendly to melee. I raid regularly on my Merc since we're short on RDPS, and on most fights I keep up and even surpass our Marauders. In fact, on Op IX, I mop the floor with our Marauders because of how much that fight favors range due to all the running around and being limited to center of the room during your color phase. They catch up a bit on Phase2, but Phase1 usually gives me a huge lead. So a lot of it really comes down to fights as well. I'm able to take advantage of RS, SM, SD and rapid shots (to keep heat under control anyway) during most movement phases to minimize impact on my DPS. It's not like melee isn't also hindered by some of the fight mechanics. The only fight where I really have a hard time is TFB Keph, the back and forth across the room really sucks there.
Blackburn - Assassin, Dovahkėėn - Marauder, Zarakė - Jugernaut, Hamza - Mercenary, Smith - Sniper

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.10.2013 , 06:46 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
While what you say is mostly true, I wouldn't agree that Merc DPS is that hindered in PVE. Lets not forget that they're still a ranged class, and that still holds some advantage over PTs. On target dummy there's no doubt that Sniper, Mara and PT out perform Mercs, but in reality most fights are not tank and spank and there are many factors that affect DPS uptime. Lets not forget that there are many encounters that are unfriendly to melee. I raid regularly on my Merc since we're short on RDPS, and on most fights I keep up and even surpass our Marauders. In fact, on Op IX, I mop the floor with our Marauders because of how much that fight favors range due to all the running around and being limited to center of the room during your color phase. They catch up a bit on Phase2, but Phase1 usually gives me a huge lead. So a lot of it really comes down to fights as well. I'm able to take advantage of RS, SM, SD and rapid shots (to keep heat under control anyway) during most movement phases to minimize impact on my DPS. It's not like melee isn't also hindered by some of the fight mechanics. The only fight where I really have a hard time is TFB Keph, the back and forth across the room really sucks there.
i see what you're saying, really...but, i disagree!

i did Op IX (SM) for the 1st time on my VG last night, and cracked top 50 in DPS (#42). just ran MP and beat every parse from The Harbinger (minus Draksh).

i run 8/8/25 so i can stay at 10m and still produce max DPS and move!

again, just my experience from a Merc/pyro (since early beta...Firebug!!) that switched to VG/assault. i've been playin the class for 3 weeks and blowing up parses in the same gear i wore on my Merc, who never broke top 50 in any zone.

i would LOVE for Merc to get some love, really...i would go back instantly. i just doubt it will happen

*EDIT* and Keph, 1st time EVER seeing that mob on VG...#21 DPS. and again, i'm in 61's!
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.11.2013 , 09:30 AM | #114
You're comparing your Merc to a class that's tied for first place with pure DPS classes Mara and Sniper. PT/VG is highly over performing and needs to be nerfed. I never argued against that point, only against the point that Mercs are terrible in PVE. Compare your DPS to assassins and ops then come tell me how bad Merc DPS is.
Blackburn - Assassin, Dovahkėėn - Marauder, Zarakė - Jugernaut, Hamza - Mercenary, Smith - Sniper

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.11.2013 , 11:43 AM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
You're comparing your Merc to a class that's tied for first place with pure DPS classes Mara and Sniper. PT/VG is highly over performing and needs to be nerfed. I never argued against that point, only against the point that Mercs are terrible in PVE. Compare your DPS to assassins and ops then come tell me how bad Merc DPS is.
got a Assassin, and in full BM gear, i do roughly >100 DPS than my full 58 PvE geared Merc...altho, i would say i play deception quite well (server first BM as deception...)

tooting my own horn on that one, sure...but, i play DPS classes well...i cannot heal AT ALL...i'm terrible.

also, VG/PT DOES NOT NEED NERFED.

the class plays very well, and is quite intuitive, even simple.

other classes need to be modeled after it...and ironically, Merc would take a whole 3 seconds to mirrior an already well balanced, useful class in Powertech/Vanguard.

*EDIT* instead of all these "ideas" up there to make Merc useful...the answer is already there, in theory. you have a fully functional class versus a under performing, gimped class...all that needs worked out is the damge type and amount it deals. (instant, elemental, and amount on powershot...fixed.)
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.11.2013 , 12:17 PM | #116
I'm not in the mood to argue. Parses don't lie. Mercs are in the mid/mid-high of the DPS spectrum. Maybe you're not as good at Merc DPS as you think you are.

www.torparse.com

Note the length of the fights, many people upload failed attempts where their burst DPS was way higher than anything they can sustain, and therefore skew the results. It's unfortunate that the site doesn't show kill parses only. Also look at 8HM and 16HM only, most top players don't run SM.

And the reason why PT/VG is over performing and needs a nerf is because it does equal DPS to sniper and mara, which are pure DPS classes. BW has already expressed that pure DPS classes should be ~5% ahead of the rest. Now we all know that the gap between highest and lowest DPS class in game is definitely more than 5%, but it doesn't change the fact that PT/VG is over performing even if you only compare it to Sniper and Mara.

Again, this is all coming from PVE standpoint and DPS potential behind classes. PVP we've already discussed and agreed on what's holding Mercs back.
Blackburn - Assassin, Dovahkėėn - Marauder, Zarakė - Jugernaut, Hamza - Mercenary, Smith - Sniper

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.11.2013 , 04:47 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
I'm not in the mood to argue. Parses don't lie. Mercs are in the mid/mid-high of the DPS spectrum. Maybe you're not as good at Merc DPS as you think you are.

www.torparse.com

Note the length of the fights, many people upload failed attempts where their burst DPS was way higher than anything they can sustain, and therefore skew the results. It's unfortunate that the site doesn't show kill parses only. Also look at 8HM and 16HM only, most top players don't run SM.

And the reason why PT/VG is over performing and needs a nerf is because it does equal DPS to sniper and mara, which are pure DPS classes. BW has already expressed that pure DPS classes should be ~5% ahead of the rest. Now we all know that the gap between highest and lowest DPS class in game is definitely more than 5%, but it doesn't change the fact that PT/VG is over performing even if you only compare it to Sniper and Mara.

Again, this is all coming from PVE standpoint and DPS potential behind classes. PVP we've already discussed and agreed on what's holding Mercs back.
maybe i'm confused, i don't think i am, since the creator of torparse answered this question in a direct response to me... but, there IS a separate category for kills and deaths. there is no skewing. i didn't understand how to read it at first either...but, i asked questions instead of accusations.

i'd bet anything i'm top 5% WW Merc...i've played VG for less than a month (nearly mirrored to Merc/Pyro and already have a few #1 parses, and MANY top 20...in 61's) i just choose not to play Arsenal spec. i do not care for it.

the reason PT/VG is overperforming is their ability to DPS NON-STOP, while moving.

look at my parses...look at the disgusting consistantcy. nothing stops me from producing the maximum DPS, minus CC.

http://www.torparse.com/a/95585 <---note the Terror fight...1st time i have EVER seen the mob. and i was grabbin adds.

that's the issue (casting), in both PvP and PvE, imo. <----imo. as someone who has played both, quite well.

and to nerf something because it is actually working is just insanity.

*EDIT* i've provided a substantial amount of evidence to prove this.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Darth_Precursor's Avatar


Darth_Precursor
01.11.2013 , 05:21 PM | #118
The run and gun idea is brilliant. I seriously hope they consider this.
Dynaster- Operative Medic
Chillum- Deception Assassin

<GOML>
The Bastion

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.11.2013 , 05:22 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post
i'd bet anything i'm top 5% WW Merc
- posts a 1675 DPS VG parse on WH, while top parse is 2425 DPS by a Sniper. Sniper/GS is not a very mobile class, yet they parse as top DPS on most fights. Btw, 3/5 of the Top5 DPS on 8man HM Op IX are Mercs.
- talks about parses from SMs and FPs, while top players are posting logs from HM and NiM.
- uses WH as an example where DPS uptime gives PT/VG advantage, meanwhile Merc can sit planted in the center of the room without moving an inch for the entire fight and hit the boss and every add that pops up.

I've heard enough.
Blackburn - Assassin, Dovahkėėn - Marauder, Zarakė - Jugernaut, Hamza - Mercenary, Smith - Sniper

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.11.2013 , 05:24 PM | #120
further evidence:

Merc/Commando performances.

HM KP:
BT- 2 top 50
J&S- 1 top 50
Foreman- 4 top 50
Fabricator- 5 top 50 (and i was told that fight don't count)
Karaaga- 4 top 50

EV HM:
XRR- 4 top 50
Gharg- 3 top 50
SOA- 9 top 50 (look at shadows/sins!!)

EC HM:
Z&T- 4 top 50
F&S- 1 top 50
Vorath- 4 top 50
Keph- 12 top 50 (hmmm)

TFB HM:
WH- 4 top 50
CHK- 1 top 50
Op9- 10 top 50 (and i know why)
Keph- 0 (ZERO) top 50
TFB- 2 top 50

so...just looking at that disproves the DPS theory.

NNL

*EDIT* what metrics is BW using?!! oh, internal...i get it. (that's sarcasm)
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -