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Ranged dps. Sorc vs merc vs sniper

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Ranged dps. Sorc vs merc vs sniper

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.15.2012 , 06:10 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
"Aggros on the the target with #2 threat" is the definition of losing aggro...
The boss can't move, and has melee attacks. Unless the dev's are idiots, the tank can't just run out of melee range and maintain agro....though I have never tested that either, I'd think that the boss would turn to #2 on the threat list and start beating on him (or he'd use some sort of special big awesome move and one shot the tank, like fabricator does sometimes if the tank moves to far away from him)

What I meant is that I assumed the tank was out of range, and when he got back in range the boss would re-agro on him. You are saying that that isn't the way the move works...ok.

Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
Yes, a taunt pulls him back. Under what circumstances would it not, assuming the target wasn't simply immune to taunts? The check would be if not taunting, but instead hitting the boss with an attack, would restore previous threat and therefore aggro, and it does not. It's a threat drop.
I'm not saying a taunt wouldn't pull him back, just that a single target threat reset is negated by a single taunt...so a tank that is taunting on cd will not be affected (other than needing to use their AoE taunt at that time). It does not drop everyone else's threat back down to levels that cause a simple 30% buffer to be risk.

Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
Yes, he jumps to the previous tank, but I have seen him go after someone else if the tank isn't quick on the taunt there. Perhaps it's just someone out-threating the tank, which is why I said I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I'd say they were out-threating the tank. I come from WoW tanking, which means that before i read how taunts work in this game, I never taunted unless there was a tank swap or I lost agro somehow. I never needed to taunt during gharj (other than the AoE taunt for the adds).

Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
Once again, if the tank taunts as the way of regaining the mob's attention, the mechanics of the threat drops are impossible to determine. It may have been a temporary threat drop, and striking the mob with any ability would restore previous threat (as was common in WoW), or it may have simply wiped the tank's threat. Every bit of evidence I've seen, however, points to the later.

These abilities completely wipe the threat of the target hit by them, which is my point. If the tank is at 300% of the aggro of the highest threat DPS (which would prevent the DPS from having any hope of pulling threat), and the tank gets hit by a threat drop and taunts the boss back, now the tank is at only 130% of the highest threat DPS, putting them well within the realm of pulling.

Bosses with threat drop mechanics are the counter and meter to exponentially exploding threat from taunt stacking.
Yes, as I said a tank threat reset SLOWS the effect of taunt, but it does not suddenly cause threat to be an issue. 300% and 30% are percents, without any actual numbers it is impossible to know if those are in the realm of pulling.

i.e. 10 seconds into the fight, being 300% above the highest DPS's threat doesn't mean that one lucky crit couldn't cause that DPS to pull agro. But if the DPS's threat is 1,000,000 then even a cushion of only 30% would still require the highest DPS to pull out 300,000 threat to even equal the tank's threat (and to pull agro another 390,000 threat...and that's assuming the tank isn't even attacking.)

If the highest DPS's threat isn't reset, then after a few minutes even 30% higher than his threat = virtually impossible to lose agro except for threat resets on the tank.

The sims I've seen (and btw, you claimed a while ago that sims only work for sorcs...you should check sithwarrior.com, most classes have at least SOME sim). Anyway, the sims I've seen for tanks put PT tanks around 700-800 or so DPS. Which means they are doing 1050-1200 TPS (PT have no "extra threat" moves other than grapple, which doesn't work on bosses). DPS specs are around 1200-1400 or so....worst case scenario the tank is only putting out 1000 TPS & the DPS is putting out 1400.

If X = highest threat in actual numbers.

The DPS is putting up 1400 TPS, the tank is putting up only 1000 TPS + 30% of X/15. As long as 30% of X/15 is more than 400, the tank will never lose agro. If the tank's threat is the only one that is being reset, then the lowest X can ever be is the DPSer's threat. So, as soon as the DPS'ers threat times 30% divided by 15 > 400, the tank can't lose agro other than during the actual threat reset....this occurs at only 20,000 threat. Which our DPS guy hits after 14-15 seconds. After 15 seconds, if the tank is doing their rotation & taunting on cd the DPS can't pull agro (other than during the time when the tank's agro was reset of course).

Yes, the buffer won't be as big as it would be if the tank's threat wasn't being reset. But if after 5 minutes of fighting the DPS is at 99.999999999999% or 0.00000000001% of the tanks threat it doesn't matter, they can't pull agro in either case.

Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
I have. The tank must taunt to regain aggro. Simply being released, or even attacking Jarg, is insufficient, implying a complete threat drop.
Ok, I've never tried it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
See above. The point is that threat wipes remove any threat lead the tank had, replacing it with simply a 30% threat lead. If I use my cloud Mind on CD, I can reduce my threat generated by about 75% by 5 minutes into a fight. If the tank is producing the exact same amount of threat as me, this gives my a threat cushion of 400%. If he gets wiped and taunts off of my, my cushion is gone, I now only have cushion of 30%.
Yes, a cushion of 30% between you and the tank. Assuming there is no other DPS in the entire raid...but in an actual fight the tank's taunt would put him 30% higher than the DPS who was right below you before you used cloud mind. If we say you are beating the #2 DPS by 10%, that still leaves you with a very large cushion (tank is at 100%, you would be at 100%, #2 DPS is at 90%. With cloud mind you are at 25%, tank is dropped to zero & then taunts and gets 30% above #2 DPS. Which puts him at 117% which is 468% above you.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
I've never yet witnessed this, can you give a specific example for me to test?
Hmm...I think false emperor, either the force choke used by the lightsaber wielding trash or the stun used by the rifle wielding silver guys.

But it is actually quite common...ask a tank if he's ever re-agro'd a trash mob by using his cc-breaker. He probably has many times, as the dev's gave virtually every silver trash mob in every flashpoint a stun.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.

Daellia's Avatar


Daellia
03.15.2012 , 07:22 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
The boss can't move, and has melee attacks. Unless the dev's are idiots, the tank can't just run out of melee range and maintain agro....though I have never tested that either, I'd think that the boss would turn to #2 on the threat list and start beating on him (or he'd use some sort of special big awesome move and one shot the tank, like fabricator does sometimes if the tank moves to far away from him)

What I meant is that I assumed the tank was out of range, and when he got back in range the boss would re-agro on him. You are saying that that isn't the way the move works...ok.
Actually, most of the boss's abilities are ranged, not melee (the knockback sweeps being the except). I've seen it several times where a tank taunted right as he was knocked back, kept threat as he flew backwards and all the while as he ran back in, getting nuked by the laser burst he spams on the tank.

Quote:
I'd say they were out-threating the tank. I come from WoW tanking, which means that before i read how taunts work in this game, I never taunted unless there was a tank swap or I lost agro somehow. I never needed to taunt during gharj (other than the AoE taunt for the adds).
Fair enough, I stand corrected.


Yes, as I said a tank threat reset SLOWS the effect of taunt, but it does not suddenly cause threat to be an issue. 300% and 30% are percents, without any actual numbers it is impossible to know if those are in the realm of pulling.

Quote:
i.e. 10 seconds into the fight, being 300% above the highest DPS's threat doesn't mean that one lucky crit couldn't cause that DPS to pull agro. But if the DPS's threat is 1,000,000 then even a cushion of only 30% would still require the highest DPS to pull out 300,000 threat to even equal the tank's threat (and to pull agro another 390,000 threat...and that's assuming the tank isn't even attacking.)
Hmm...point. The fight does eventually reach a point where even 30% of my threat is going to be more than I could ever hope to overcome. Actually, come to think of it, if the tank is taunting off me, I would need almost twice my current threat (actually, 169%) to pull off him, assuming he generate no more threat until I did.

So ya, commentary on tank drops more or less retracted. I guess I was just arguing against the idea that once a fight had been active for more than a minute or so, the tank could keep threat with nothing but taunt. The threat drops would prevent that from allowing a stable enough buffer.

Quote:
(and btw, you claimed a while ago that sims only work for sorcs...you should check sithwarrior.com, most classes have at least SOME sim)
Sorry, I should have specified. Simulationcraft only works for SIs right now (sorcs and 'sins). Some other classes have sims, and all of them as far as I know have at least one spreadsheet (though most of these do not include a simulator).

Quote:
Yes, a cushion of 30% between you and the tank. Assuming there is no other DPS in the entire raid...but in an actual fight the tank's taunt would put him 30% higher than the DPS who was right below you before you used cloud mind. If we say you are beating the #2 DPS by 10%, that still leaves you with a very large cushion (tank is at 100%, you would be at 100%, #2 DPS is at 90%. With cloud mind you are at 25%, tank is dropped to zero & then taunts and gets 30% above #2 DPS. Which puts him at 117% which is 468% above you.)
Actually, the implication was that I was top threat for dps in both situations (ie. the other dps were using their threat drops as well). Also, Cloud Mind only reduces threat by 25%, it just aggregates to about 75% over 5 minutes or so. Actually, interestingly enough, you reach a holding capacity on threat. Use of Cloud Mind on cooldown eventually prevents you from gaining threat at all (on average), as soon as your total threat (right before you use your threat drop) is equal to 180 times your average TPS. For a sorc, according to Simcraft, that's around 280-300k threat in BIS gear.

Either way, even at 300k threat, if I stay at that level (and the other dps stay at their holding capacities below me), that still means the tank would be 90k above me on taunt, which is about 60 seconds of dps time, and I'd need another 90k above that to actually pull. So ya, you're correct. If the tank taunts off me with me at my holding capacity of 300k threat, even if I stopped using Cloud Mind entirely, it'd be effectively impossible for me to pull off him inside a minute and a half to two minutes.

Quote:
Hmm...I think false emperor, either the force choke used by the lightsaber wielding trash or the stun used by the rifle wielding silver guys.

But it is actually quite common...ask a tank if he's ever re-agro'd a trash mob by using his cc-breaker. He probably has many times, as the dev's gave virtually every silver trash mob in every flashpoint a stun.
I know stuns are common, but most of them don't result in an aggro suppression. I'll investigate further and see what I come up with.
Even Angels must kill from time to time... ~Kaedis

Crunchyblack's Avatar


Crunchyblack
03.15.2012 , 08:15 PM | #63
I agree that sorcs are by no means a "glass cannon" type class.

They are a CC harass class witha steady, never ending flow of DPS..

If you mouse over the WZ stats (i really think 5% of the pop knows this) it will show the DPS of each character when mousing over the total damage done. By this means you can get a general feel for what each class can pump out, over time at least. Obviously players will have good and bad game ect. However with sorcs, and most use the same rotation for dps, its not rocket surgery...you can see the disparities in DPS between classes in this way with no combat log or 3rd party parse (it in fact is a parse done during the WZ)

Anyway ill leave if up to you guys to start mousing over players total damage stat to see who did what DPS...after a few WZ's youll get a general idea on the DPS of each class.

I know most dont do this since 90% of the WZ team leaves the second the exit button cools down and the rest are waiting to see how MVP pan out.

Sorcs do low DPS...its just they do it steady (full lightning does of course have higher DPS numbers especially when played correctly) People might be surprised at the common hybrid DPS spec and its DPS. its rather unimpressive.

Sorcs are CC harassers and <DPS Support> since their stream of DPS doesnt end and allows the big hitters to take a target down fast. You can see it in WZ before 50, the sorcs targeting other players figthing and giving them the DPS boost and CC support to take them down. Your support, sorry. Oh and im not sure if its just me but i am seeing less and less sorcs in the 50 bracket...some times where there are none...i know statistically they are the most populair and they were everywhere int he 49 braket, just seeing less and less in the 50.

Honestly i dont think they need a buff, they have a role (heals in pve and raids/ harass and dps support in pvp) but they certainly dont need a nerf.

swifferdude's Avatar


swifferdude
03.15.2012 , 08:33 PM | #64
In MY opinion, I prefer the sniper, mostly for its burst damage seems to be the best out of the 3, though all in all, u can't really decide on which one is the best at dps mostly because it depends on the circumstances of the fight, the player, the gear, etc. So ya know, idk and nobody on this or any thread about this probably never will. but ya know what? I dont know...
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Felkroth's Avatar


Felkroth
03.15.2012 , 08:45 PM | #65
I don't know if it says much...but the Eternity Vault fight where each person kills their own mob. I know the sniper and merc that I compare myself to on that fight (that always parse balls to the wall like I try todo)....I always kill my mob first as a Sorcerer dps.

usually on those mauraders (the highest hp ones) I finish first, followed by the merc, then the sniper.


we always make a fun wager of it...Merc beat me once.
(all 3 of us in full rakata)

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.16.2012 , 01:54 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Crunchyblack View Post
I agree that sorcs are by no means a "glass cannon" type class.

They are a CC harass class witha steady, never ending flow of DPS..

If you mouse over the WZ stats (i really think 5% of the pop knows this) it will show the DPS of each character when mousing over the total damage done. By this means you can get a general feel for what each class can pump out, over time at least. Obviously players will have good and bad game ect. However with sorcs, and most use the same rotation for dps, its not rocket surgery...you can see the disparities in DPS between classes in this way with no combat log or 3rd party parse (it in fact is a parse done during the WZ)

Anyway ill leave if up to you guys to start mousing over players total damage stat to see who did what DPS...after a few WZ's youll get a general idea on the DPS of each class.

I know most dont do this since 90% of the WZ team leaves the second the exit button cools down and the rest are waiting to see how MVP pan out.

Sorcs do low DPS...its just they do it steady (full lightning does of course have higher DPS numbers especially when played correctly) People might be surprised at the common hybrid DPS spec and its DPS. its rather unimpressive.

Sorcs are CC harassers and <DPS Support> since their stream of DPS doesnt end and allows the big hitters to take a target down fast. You can see it in WZ before 50, the sorcs targeting other players figthing and giving them the DPS boost and CC support to take them down. Your support, sorry. Oh and im not sure if its just me but i am seeing less and less sorcs in the 50 bracket...some times where there are none...i know statistically they are the most populair and they were everywhere int he 49 braket, just seeing less and less in the 50.

Honestly i dont think they need a buff, they have a role (heals in pve and raids/ harass and dps support in pvp) but they certainly dont need a nerf.
Hybrid (and any dot spec) will end up with low dps using that measure.

A good DoT spec'd player will have as many dots on as many players as possible at all times. Most healers don't cleanse (and even good ones still have to deal with the cd). So, on my sorc I can generally keep affliction on all enemy players in range, at all times.

Am I killing anyone? Rarely...though I do usually end up with a high number of kills due to people running away from combat and dying to a tick.

But it's pressure, and making it easier for someone else to get the kill.

That play style leads to low DPS, because I am not doing my full rotation...I'm pretty much tab>affliction>tab>affliction>tab>affliction with a few death fields, proc'd force lightnings, and Chain lightnings along the way. So, not doing full rotation = lower DPS.

Also, I'm always in combat, because as long as I'm alive, somewhere there is a player with my dot on them. DPS is calculated by total damage/time in combat. If you are out of combat for large periods of time and then burst someone down in 3 GCDs and then back to being out of combat, you will have higher DPS than someone who is just constantly dealing damage to everyone on the opposing team.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.

dutch-master's Avatar


dutch-master
03.16.2012 , 02:46 AM | #67
They are all different. Some are bursty some are stable. Deal with it.

WZ dps or heals are subjective on the amount of harassment, the flow of combat and the strength of the other team. Who's sat at a canon control all alone for half the match? Not to mention that sorcerers tend to get picked on because they are an "easy kill", almost as easy as a sniper.

At the end of the day I think the PvE DPS output is close enough to being balanced. If you can provide empirical data stating otherwise, please do so.

Some other factors are a bit "less balanced"....

Tamanous's Avatar


Tamanous
01.10.2013 , 03:22 PM | #68
Sorry wrong thread. Super necro!