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Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter > Mercenary
Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
12.31.2012 , 08:21 PM | #101
I noticed that this thread's mirror in the PVP sub-forum has been removed. I don't mind the removal. The thread really should've been in this sub-forum anyway.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
01.04.2013 , 02:03 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Nassik View Post
I noticed that this thread's mirror in the PVP sub-forum has been removed. I don't mind the removal. The thread really should've been in this sub-forum anyway.
so that it never gets seen by a dev? sounds brilliant to me

TrumpetNut's Avatar


TrumpetNut
01.08.2013 , 10:10 AM | #103
Great job. This would be a perfect solution to us lame old mercs but EAware will...........Not do it. Wait 4 months and they'll go "We realize that mercenaries may have a little escape problem" TRUST ME THATS IT.
Reyna lvl 50 Sniper Bacari lvl 50 Marauder Bacaari lvl 50 tank/dps Powertech Budiabo lvl 50 heals mercenary Rayna lvl 20 sorc healer

TrumpetNut's Avatar


TrumpetNut
01.08.2013 , 10:15 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
ive updated the OP with a couple of minor changes.

- Run and Gun internal cooldown changed from 15 to 20s
- Arsenal: Rocket Punch should have its knockback effect returned, but w/out the root. in conjunction with Run and Gun, the root would likely be OP
Jet boost at 50%. 30% isn't enough usually. I dunno just my opinion though.
Reyna lvl 50 Sniper Bacari lvl 50 Marauder Bacaari lvl 50 tank/dps Powertech Budiabo lvl 50 heals mercenary Rayna lvl 20 sorc healer

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
01.08.2013 , 02:07 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by TrumpetNut View Post
Jet boost at 50%. 30% isn't enough usually. I dunno just my opinion though.
are you refering to the slow effect on the back-end of Jet Boost?

or my proposed speed boost? i had proposed 30% b/c that is the same as Hold the Line/Hydraulic Overrides for VG/PT.

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.09.2013 , 05:34 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
I hear this a lot - that Merc damage output is fine. But it simply is NOT true. When piloted by a top player, damage output for Jugg & Mara is about 50% higher than for Merc (1. 2million vs. 800k). Sorc damage output is about 25% higher than Merc, with 1 million being a notable mark. Operative damage output is roughly similar to that of Merc, but with higher survivability and much higher utility. This is the nut of the problem - at the higher player skill levels, Merc dps has the lowest damage output, the lowest survivability AND the lowest utility. It is hands down the WORST subclass in the game. Meanwhile BW thinks that Merc dps is OP because it dominates PvP amongst low skill players. BW simply has been unable to understand that there is a dynamic between player skill and class balance that they have not addressed. It has been this way for 12 months.
Dick measuring contests on PVP scoreboards, skewed by loads of AoE, CC, knockbacks, etc. =/= DPS. When discussing actual DPS capability of a class, the only sources that count are PVE parses from top players in the game:

http://www.torparse.com

As you can see, the top DPS classes in the game are Sniper/GS, Mara/Sent, PT/VG, followed closely by Mercs, then the others.

Mercs do NOT need a DPS buff, only a buff to their ability to perform that DPS under pressure. Some of the suggestions in this thread would address that, although I feel they're overblown.

First off, R&G should only apply to Trace Missile/Power Shot IMO. Instant heals on DPS specs are not balanced no matter how you try to justify it. Second, I don't feel it's appropriate on Rocket Punch/Stockstrike. You're giving way too much utility to a single ability: high dmg, knockback, root AND insta cast on next 3 abilities? Way too good. I support returning the knockback to RP/SS in addition to existing root, but I think R&G should be tied to another ability, like Jet Boost. JB's cooldown would also nicely control how often R&G can be applied so you wouldn't have to have that clunky mechanic added on top of the talent that prevents it from proccing more often than every 20 seconds.

Second, dispelling all types of debuffs should not exist on any class. Certain specs are already completely useless in competitive PVP (Annihilation/Watchmen) due to dispells, we do not need to make it even worse.
Blackburn - Assassin, Dovahkėėn - Marauder, Zarakė - Jugernaut, Hamza - Mercenary, Smith - Sniper

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.09.2013 , 09:31 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
Dick measuring contests on PVP scoreboards, skewed by loads of AoE, CC, knockbacks, etc. =/= DPS. When discussing actual DPS capability of a class, the only sources that count are PVE parses from top players in the game:

http://www.torparse.com

As you can see, the top DPS classes in the game are Sniper/GS, Mara/Sent, PT/VG, followed closely by Mercs, then the others.

Mercs do NOT need a DPS buff, only a buff to their ability to perform that DPS under pressure. Some of the suggestions in this thread would address that, although I feel they're overblown.

First off, R&G should only apply to Trace Missile/Power Shot IMO. Instant heals on DPS specs are not balanced no matter how you try to justify it. Second, I don't feel it's appropriate on Rocket Punch/Stockstrike. You're giving way too much utility to a single ability: high dmg, knockback, root AND insta cast on next 3 abilities? Way too good. I support returning the knockback to RP/SS in addition to existing root, but I think R&G should be tied to another ability, like Jet Boost. JB's cooldown would also nicely control how often R&G can be applied so you wouldn't have to have that clunky mechanic added on top of the talent that prevents it from proccing more often than every 20 seconds.

Second, dispelling all types of debuffs should not exist on any class. Certain specs are already completely useless in competitive PVP (Annihilation/Watchmen) due to dispells, we do not need to make it even worse.
what i can say on the subject, having both a 50 Merc and VG (pyro/assault) is they are NOWHERE NEAR CLOSE.

not only does my VG do ~200+ DPS in the EXACT SAME gear, he does it while moving non-stop, kiting, jumping, running. things that are the pillar of excellent PvP'rs.

While my Merc is quite capable in PvE, my VG does it better thru elemental damage, increased AP on RS/HiB, and the ability to produce 1800+ DPS while remaining mobile. i.e. TFB, where moving and positioning is vital.

instant, uniterruptable casting...

until Mercs/Commandos get that, they will always be fodder to mobile DPS classes.

sniper's not mobile? they are also not interrupable, get +defense in cover, and have many tools, when put in the right hands, that they can produce better DPS than Merc while mobile.

i've been playing my VG for about 2-3 weeks, and i'm already on a few TORPARSE leaderboards in 61's...well ahead of most Mercs/commandos.

to ignore the facts is plain ignorance. i've proven this thru hundreds of parses, in the EXACT SAME GEAR (see above) that VG out performs Merc. (i've played Merc since early beta)

so, DPS is not fine.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.10.2013 , 01:15 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
Dick measuring contests on PVP scoreboards, skewed by loads of AoE, CC, knockbacks, etc. =/= DPS. When discussing actual DPS capability of a class, the only sources that count are PVE parses from top players in the game
Truly spoken like a pve person with no knowledge of the pvp environment. In fact the high score pvp matches are almost a perfect representation of true dps capability in pvp because they DO have AoE, cc and stuns. Claiming that one should simply ignore what happens in 25-35% of the time spent in a pvp match exposes how ludicrous your position is.

If anything these high output matches underestimate the lack of effectiveness of the Merc dps subclass. In these high output matches, typically both sides have copious healing resulting in few deaths on either side. Which thus overestimates the capability of flimsy classes as they do not have such longevity in other circumstances. And Merc dps is as flimsy as they come in the dps category. Moreover these high output matches are typically straight up slugfests where the utility from things like stealth capabilities are not utilized. And who has the lowest utility of any subclass in the game? Merc dps of course. So the high output matches, such as static Voidstars or no mid cap Alderaan/Novare are in fact the BEST CASE SCENARIO for Merc dps. And in these matches it is easily seen that top player dps for Jugg/Mara is about 50% greater than for Merc. PT & Sorc dps is about 25% higher than for Merc. Merc damage output is in fact the worst of any dps subclass, on top of Merc having the lowest survivability AND the lowest utility. This is why Merc dps is the WORST SUBCLASS in the game. Period.

Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
Certain specs are already completely useless in competitive PVP (Annihilation/Watchmen) due to dispells, we do not need to make it even worse.
LOL. You have the ability to see that dispells can negate DoT damage classes. But evidently you can not find it in yourself to see that affects Merc Pyro as much as any class.

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.10.2013 , 01:38 AM | #109
^^^ what he said.

post 50, i've had a few 800k+ matches, and a 966k. in each of those (1 amazing HB match) the other team was simply stacked with healers. (2 700k healers in my 966k match)

i don't even count those, tbh.

sure, they were fun...but, it was far from TRUE competative PvP. and definitely NOT ranked.

i consider myself top tier in both PvE and PvP, and i get destroyed in PvP as a Merc to well organized, other top tier SW/JK, tank'sins, sniper/slinger, and PT/VG if they blow all their ammo/heat.

interrupt power shot, stun/kb unload and i'm boned. i'm forced to attempt to kite while spamming rapid shots.

the class simply does not have the tools to actaully compete in competative PvP.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.10.2013 , 10:59 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Truly spoken like a pve person with no knowledge of the pvp environment. In fact the high score pvp matches are almost a perfect representation of true dps capability in pvp because they DO have AoE, cc and stuns. Claiming that one should simply ignore what happens in 25-35% of the time spent in a pvp match exposes how ludicrous your position is.

If anything these high output matches underestimate the lack of effectiveness of the Merc dps subclass. In these high output matches, typically both sides have copious healing resulting in few deaths on either side. Which thus overestimates the capability of flimsy classes as they do not have such longevity in other circumstances. And Merc dps is as flimsy as they come in the dps category. Moreover these high output matches are typically straight up slugfests where the utility from things like stealth capabilities are not utilized. And who has the lowest utility of any subclass in the game? Merc dps of course. So the high output matches, such as static Voidstars or no mid cap Alderaan/Novare are in fact the BEST CASE SCENARIO for Merc dps. And in these matches it is easily seen that top player dps for Jugg/Mara is about 50% greater than for Merc. PT & Sorc dps is about 25% higher than for Merc. Merc damage output is in fact the worst of any dps subclass, on top of Merc having the lowest survivability AND the lowest utility. This is why Merc dps is the WORST SUBCLASS in the game. Period.



LOL. You have the ability to see that dispells can negate DoT damage classes. But evidently you can not find it in yourself to see that affects Merc Pyro as much as any class.
Nonsense. Spoken like a truly ignorant PVPer who only takes part in one aspect of the game. My opinion on the other hand comes from a decade of MMO experience in both PVP and PVE (SWTOR since beta, rank 14 and gladiator in WoW, WAR, AoC, etc.). If you actually READ my entire post you'd see that I acknowledge the fact that Mercs need a buff in their ABILITY to DPS in PVP, not the DPS itself.

Mercs already outperform most classes in raw DPS capability, you cannot just buff raw damage without considering what effect that would have on other parts of the game. The fact that Sniper, Mara and PT are capable of higher PVE DPS doesn't mean that Mercs need a buff in theirs, it means those classes are over performing, especially PT which is not even a pure DPS class. Assassins and operative have terrible DPS, and Sorcs aren't that great either, but I don't see you complaining that Mercs are capable of completely wiping the floor with them when it comes to DPS. Yet those same classes outperform Mercs in PVP. Clearly DPS is not the problem, but the ability to deliver it on the move and/or under pressure is. Buffing Merc damage would just skew the DPS balance even further. We should be boosting the lowest DPS classes and nerfing the highest, not boosting middle ones to the highest, leaving the low ones even more behind. Mara and Sniper should have a small edge on damage since it's all they can do, but the disparity of DPS across all classes is far beyond the promised 5%.

Bottom line is, you cannot just buff raw damage, improving mobility, defenses and ability to do unhindered damage is what's needed. That part of this thread I fully agreed with, but you started going off on a tangent about how Merc DPS needs a massive buff, which is complete nonsense. If Merc defense and mobility is improved, their already high damage capability would follow. Your talk of "flimsiness" of the Merc class is irrelevant, since even if Merc had 90% dmg reduction at all times, it would do nothing to improve their DPS when they have constant interrupts on them. Biggest problem for Mercs is how easily they're shut down. PTs are barely 10% ahead of Mercs in PVE, yet double to tripple their damage in PVP. This is not because the class has higher damage capability, but because most of its abilities are instant and can therefore DPS unhindered regardless of anyone being on it. This is why I said that what needs improvement the MOST for Mercs, is their ABILITY to do DPS under pressure. Hell, even just making Tracer Missile uninterpretable at all times would go a long way.

But you can go on with your irrational and ignorant suggestions that do not consider the consequences of your changes on all aspects of the game, I'm sure the dev's will love your approach.
Blackburn - Assassin, Dovahkėėn - Marauder, Zarakė - Jugernaut, Hamza - Mercenary, Smith - Sniper