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What you like to see in the new Ops

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anstalt's Avatar


anstalt
01.09.2013 , 05:00 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
While I support making the mechanics more intense so that they can't just be laughed through (HM/NiM EC, HM TfB do a good job of this, imo), the removal of enrage timers is *really* not something that should happen. Enrage timers exist to require a minimum level of DPS. Without them, you could bring in *any* DPS (or none at all, honestly) and still finish the content.

I have to wonder what tier of ops content you do if you think that the mechanics aren't important and that only DPS/HPS matter. Sure, it's that way on SM because that's entry content where the devs have explicitly stated they want everyone to be able to see (re: it has to be feasibly puggable). On HM/NiM, most of those mechanics that can just be laughed at have to actually be dealt with properly.
Atm, we've got TFB HM on farm and we've done T&Z NiM, so im doing fairly high level stuff.

In terms of boss fights where the mechanics are *significant*, by which i mean both hard to figure out and hard to execute, there are very few. I would say just EC Kephess, TFB Operator and TFB Kephess. The rest, the mechanics are fairly straight forwards.


Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Dear. Jeebus. No. One of the *worst* things about classic Vanilla WoW was having to have a different set of gear for *every single raid*. For MC and BWL, you *had* to have fire resist gear. For AQ40 and parts of Naxx, you *had* to have nature resist gear. For the other parts of Naxx, you *had* to have frost resist gear. It was bad for healers and DPS, but it was *especially* bad for tanks, who often had to devote half or more of their bag slots *specifically* to all of the different gear they needed for different fights.

Horizontal gearing should be about multiple optimal methods of stat allocation. It should *not* be about having to carry around 3 full sets of gear because certain fights demand it.
Think we're basically talking about the same thing. The ultimate goal of horizontal scaling is to offer the player as much choice as possible with the way they build their character. At the moment for pve endgame, there is basically 1, maybe 2 specs that are "optimal" and 1 setup for gear for each spec. Everything else is demonstrably worse. That is boring, but that is the way the classes, and more specifically the endgame is designed.

Horizontal gear scaling, combined with more mechanic-heavy fights should aim to open up the game to more choices for building your character. I dont want to force people to carry multiple sets of gear, hell, I already carry just over 3 full sets of gear on my shadow! But I do want people to have options. I want people to be able to optimise for different raids / bosses if they choose.

I guess I was just spoiled in LOTRO. That had horizontal gear scaling with multiple different options, plus the rare unique drops. For most people, 90% of the time you'd wear your "BiS" gear for maximum DPS/Healing/Mitigation, however for progression raiding we'd always tweak our gear to make it easiest to get through. For example, the shadow boss in Ost Dunhoth was a real ***** to heal through and in my guild one of our healers was quite weak. So, for that boss only we'd all put on our shadow mitigation gear, pop shadow mit buffs and whilst our DPS was lower, it shifted the pressure from the healer who couldn't keep up, to the DPS so that we could clear the boss. Basically, we had options beyond just "play better".

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
There are already rare loot drops in most of the content that encourages people to keep doing it: pets, mounts, companion skins, and unique shells. I *really* don't want to see all of the screwery that would occur with rare drops that were actually tied to specific pieces of statted equipment: you would see *everything* become master loot to prevent randoms from stealing the potential rare drop from guildies (or the ops leader if the ops leader needs/wants it). There are already sufficient rare loot incentives to run content; such rare drops don't need to be made even more competitive by making them required for optimization.
We don't have anything to incentivise doing old content beyond the GF daily. Sure, there are mounts etc, but thats all fluff, its not useful!

Rare drops wouldn't be required, they'd just be nice to have. They'd be an incentive to farm all content, not just focus on a small bit of the endgame. You can have rare drops without them being required or even BiS.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.09.2013 , 05:32 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by anstalt View Post
We don't have anything to incentivise doing old content beyond the GF daily. Sure, there are mounts etc, but thats all fluff, its not useful!

Rare drops wouldn't be required, they'd just be nice to have. They'd be an incentive to farm all content, not just focus on a small bit of the endgame. You can have rare drops without them being required or even BiS.
In the first part, you're asking that rare drops be made useful so that people will feel some compulsion to farm it, and, in the second, you're saying that they shouldn't be required or BiS even though, unless the gear actually *is* BiS, you're never going to see people farm it or care about it all that much (excepting it being several tiers of better quality than what the normal drops are, such that it's only *slightly* worse than the actual BiS).

You're essentially contradicting yourself here. You're also ignoring the fact that some people actually *do* farm said outdated content for the "useless" fluff benefits. I farmed the living *bejeesus* out of Lost Island to get my Orosquab and Midnight Rakling. I did the same for SM KP and EV until I got my Tirsa Elite (it only took a year of doing it virtually every week to get it on my main...). People farm leveling FPs to get specific shells. Just because it's not mechanically "useful" doesn't mean it's not desired. If anything, it would probably piss off *all kinds* of people that optimize if the only way to get (insert useful stat increase here) was to farm the hell out of a piece of old content.

Rare drops with tweaked stats don't make people farm old content when the stats on it are no longer worthwhile (which is what you're pretty much asking for; if the rare drop isn't BiS for a couple tiers above it, then it's not gonna be farmed after that content is over). What makes people farm content that *doesn't* lead to BiS gear is the intangible stuff: mounts, pets, interesting models, etc; stuff that remains relevant when the stats no longer are.
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anstalt's Avatar


anstalt
01.09.2013 , 06:27 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
In the first part, you're asking that rare drops be made useful so that people will feel some compulsion to farm it, and, in the second, you're saying that they shouldn't be required or BiS even though, unless the gear actually *is* BiS, you're never going to see people farm it or care about it all that much (excepting it being several tiers of better quality than what the normal drops are, such that it's only *slightly* worse than the actual BiS).
Take this example:

LI HM Rare Drop: Implant of Power - 20 Endurance, 280 Power
Kaon HM Rare Drop: Implant of Devastation - 20 Endurance, 200 Crit, 80 Surge
False Emp HM Rare Drop: Implant of Willpower - 20 Endurance, 280 Willpower
D7 HM Rare Drop: Implant of Surviving - 100 Endurance, -5% Inc Damage, 100 Power

Each of these implants *could* be best in slot, depending on the rest of your gear. If you go for the LI implant, it means you need to get your crit elsewhere. Go for the survivability implant and you'll need damage from elsewhere. The point is, each one is useful, they are comparable incomparables. Each one offers a boost to one area of stats at the expense of another. Its all about choice


Tbh, I don't expect it to ever get implemented as it is extremely hard to balance out, but I've seen it done before in LOTRO and LOTRO's itemisation (with the exception of radience) has always been miles better than in TOR imo.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

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Kitru
01.09.2013 , 06:52 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by anstalt View Post
LOTRO's itemisation (with the exception of radience) has always been miles better than in TOR imo.
I actually think TOR has done an amazing job with its itemization, barring the some of the more recent problems (DR curve screwery primarily, insofar as progressing to certain points drastically limits the effectiveness of the various stats, especially for healers and DPS with crit/surge compared to power). The only reason it seems bad is because everything is so customizable it's relatively simple to just find the best loadout and stick with it rather than just having static gear with given stats and very little actual variability within it. Essentially, it's the ability to customize that most people really have a problem with from a design standpoint, rather than an actual problem with how gear is itemized (since you can have whatever you want rather than having to choose between 2-3 items with given itemization for each slot). It's just one of those wonderful things about human psychology: we're happier when we're given fewer options because there is less perceived opportunity cost even if you actually chose the best option.
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