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Why does it feel like that Jedi Shadow tanks are squishy in pvp?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why does it feel like that Jedi Shadow tanks are squishy in pvp?

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
01.05.2013 , 09:42 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Z-ToXiN View Post
Shadow tank in full tank gear doesn't feel squishy to me. Not as survivable as a fully geared jugg tank, but the difference between tank in DPS gear and tank in tank gear is enormous.

Lots of people do DPS gear in Tank spec. Which is a perfectly good tank/dps hybrid and is fine for most regs. But full tank gear makes a big difference in survivability. Especially if you have a good healer on your team. You can survive things you definitely would not in DPS gear. Get full tank gear, think like a tank, play like a tank, and you will feel like a tank.
yeah, that's the point, not as survivable as a tank geared jugg tank. Basically, if you play as a jugg tank in tank gear, you're going to output very little damage, but you're going to be hard to kill. If you play as a sin tank in tank gear, you're going to output a little more damage than a jugg tank, but you're going to be relatively easy to kill. Think about it like this, if you play a jugg tank in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 4-5 lolsmashes without a healer before dying. If you play a sin tank (31/0/10) in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 2-3 lolsmashes before dying. You have less armor, so you're going to have less mitigation, and every time you're stunned, your self heals that are Supposed to make up for the lack of armor are going to be halted. Thus, you're more squishy than a jugg tank. So a better choice is to use dps gear, you'll still only be able to take 2-3 lolsmashes before dying, but you'll be able to kill the lolsmasher with 2200dmg ticks of force lightning instead of just slowly chipping away at his hp with 700dmg ticks of force lightning.

Quote: Originally Posted by RaithHarth View Post
Is bioware going to fix this mistake? sounds to me to be a major problem
I'm not saying that's balanced, I'm not saying that's right, etc. I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation when you play those classes. And no, bioware does not intend to "fix" this, because it's not "broken," it's working as intended, i.e., why they intentionally made it this way.

Bioware altered your armor rating, pray they do not alter it any further.
Lightsabers, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Jedi Mind Tricks, what else could you want from an MMO? There may be other MMOs out there, but do they have Lightsabers?....Do They?

Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?

Azrienov's Avatar


Azrienov
01.05.2013 , 10:53 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by RaithHarth View Post
Shadows tanks have force stun and force lift (the lift cc only lasts 8 seconds) plus the mind maze used in stealth, how many stuns does the Assassin have I wonder? hmm
Exactly. The. Same.

E X A C T L Y

T H E

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Azrienov's Avatar


Azrienov
01.05.2013 , 10:56 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by SomeJagoff View Post
Think about it like this, if you play a jugg tank in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 4-5 lolsmashes without a healer before dying. If you play a sin tank (31/0/10) in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 2-3 lolsmashes before dying.
It makes me sad that you do not realize that SMASH IS A FORCE ATTACK

Therefore it IS NOT MITIGATED BY ARMOR

And you have the only defensive cooldown in the game that renders you IMMUNE TO IT

vimm's Avatar


vimm
01.05.2013 , 12:07 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by RaithHarth View Post
Even with full elite war hero gear, it just doesn't add up why I get killed so quickly, so it just me or does the empire have more arsenal at there disposal than we do? The Inquisitors have more stuns than any class, your completely helpless when your stunned to the point of no return, yet you don't see consulars providing that amount of stuns at there disposal, it's almost like our absorb and shields are useless against power/surge/critical attacks because my HP bar drains rather quickly against them.

Shadow tanks could use a boost of something
Oh god.
geeR
Phantom of the Operative

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
01.05.2013 , 01:21 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by SomeJagoff View Post
it was addressed to bioware, and bioware nerfed armor and self heals, then increased the amount of time you can be stunned even longer, so even less self heals. A lot of people wanted to keep the armor rating and no self heals, myself included, but that would require them to actually redesign the class and its mechanics, which they won't do. Tanksins with DPS gear were too overpowered in pvp, so a nerf was put into place. Result? Tankasins with DPS gear still powerful, slightly less survivability, and Tankasins with tank gear is like a sorc without the bubble, except sorcs can at least do damage.

The only workaround is to not use tank gear for pvp, period. Even in huttball, just grab the ball and toss it to a lolsmasher or a tank jugg/vanguard, they're more likely to outlast the sin in tank gear.
Yes still powerful, Yet in line with the other classes. It isn't hard to kill a shadow tank in DPS gear, I am DPS at the moment and burn them down all the time, as i see other classes doing. Any class can shine with the right player playing it. I have seen Mercs well played. operatives which are blinding. Bioware encourages the alt system so by now most have nearly all classes. you will never be truly happy with all of them. I myself think the scoundrel class suck. Others i know love the class. shadow tanks or DPS tanks are not squishy though in PVP.

RaithHarth's Avatar


RaithHarth
01.05.2013 , 04:42 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by SomeJagoff View Post
yeah, that's the point, not as survivable as a tank geared jugg tank. Basically, if you play as a jugg tank in tank gear, you're going to output very little damage, but you're going to be hard to kill. If you play as a sin tank in tank gear, you're going to output a little more damage than a jugg tank, but you're going to be relatively easy to kill. Think about it like this, if you play a jugg tank in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 4-5 lolsmashes without a healer before dying. If you play a sin tank (31/0/10) in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 2-3 lolsmashes before dying. You have less armor, so you're going to have less mitigation, and every time you're stunned, your self heals that are Supposed to make up for the lack of armor are going to be halted. Thus, you're more squishy than a jugg tank. So a better choice is to use dps gear, you'll still only be able to take 2-3 lolsmashes before dying, but you'll be able to kill the lolsmasher with 2200dmg ticks of force lightning instead of just slowly chipping away at his hp with 700dmg ticks of force lightning.



I'm not saying that's balanced, I'm not saying that's right, etc. I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation when you play those classes. And no, bioware does not intend to "fix" this, because it's not "broken," it's working as intended, i.e., why they intentionally made it this way.

Bioware altered your armor rating, pray they do not alter it any further.
Yeah it's funny how bioware barely gave shadow tanks any absorption in the new elite gear, most of it relies on defense and shielding, so why bother with survivor gear if it isn't any good in the first place? a tank without survivor gear is like putting a healer in dps gear, it's too unbalanced to the point where the system blows out of proportion,
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Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
01.05.2013 , 06:33 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Azrienov View Post
It makes me sad that you do not realize that SMASH IS A FORCE ATTACK

Therefore it IS NOT MITIGATED BY ARMOR

And you have the only defensive cooldown in the game that renders you IMMUNE TO IT
Yes it is.

Smash is a force attack that does kinetic damage. Energy/kinetic is mitigated by armor.

But sins do have access to a talent that reduces aoe damage.

Z-ToXiN's Avatar


Z-ToXiN
01.05.2013 , 08:08 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by SomeJagoff View Post
yeah, that's the point, not as survivable as a tank geared jugg tank. Basically, if you play as a jugg tank in tank gear, you're going to output very little damage, but you're going to be hard to kill. If you play as a sin tank in tank gear, you're going to output a little more damage than a jugg tank, but you're going to be relatively easy to kill. Think about it like this, if you play a jugg tank in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 4-5 lolsmashes without a healer before dying. If you play a sin tank (31/0/10) in tank gear with 22k hp, you're probably going to be able to take 2-3 lolsmashes before dying. You have less armor, so you're going to have less mitigation, and every time you're stunned, your self heals that are Supposed to make up for the lack of armor are going to be halted. Thus, you're more squishy than a jugg tank. So a better choice is to use dps gear, you'll still only be able to take 2-3 lolsmashes before dying, but you'll be able to kill the lolsmasher with 2200dmg ticks of force lightning instead of just slowly chipping away at his hp with 700dmg ticks of force lightning.



I'm not saying that's balanced, I'm not saying that's right, etc. I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation when you play those classes. And no, bioware does not intend to "fix" this, because it's not "broken," it's working as intended, i.e., why they intentionally made it this way.

Bioware altered your armor rating, pray they do not alter it any further.
The thing is, people run around in a Darkness spec in DPS gear, play as if they were a DPS but just throw a guard on someone, then complain they dont feel like a tank.

Assassin tanks in tank gear vs tank juggs.... The assassin is easier to kill straight up, yes. But he has other things to make up for it. Stealth. More CC's (especially if you spec into intant whirlwind). Force speed. Overload and Force Pull instead of Force Push and Jump. And of course, being able to do more damage than a jugg tank. The difference is not "little" as you say but is VERY big - Im talking being able to easily do 2 or 3 times as much damage in full tank gear compared to a full tank jugg, while being able to put up similar protection or more.

What you have to understand is that playing as tank in full tank gear is a COMPLETELY different playstyle than playing in tank spec with DPS gear as more of a hybrid DPS. Few people actually do the full tank sin, and even fewer do it well.
ADRAAJ
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funkiestj's Avatar


funkiestj
01.07.2013 , 11:22 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Z-ToXiN View Post
Assassin tanks in tank gear vs tank juggs.... The assassin is easier to kill straight up, yes. But he has other things to make up for it. Stealth. More CC's (especially if you spec into instant whirlwind). Force speed. Overload and Force Pull instead of Force Push and Jump. And of course, being able to do more damage than a jugg tank. The difference is not "little" as you say but is VERY big - Im talking being able to easily do 2 or 3 times as much damage in full tank gear compared to a full tank jugg, while being able to put up similar protection or more.
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Are people really so clueless that that don't get the above? It seems easier for me to believe we are being trolled.

We have different classes (even for a single role) for a reason. If they all played the same then there would really only be one class.

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I am a bad player, so what?

Rynis's Avatar


Rynis
01.07.2013 , 11:30 AM | #60
I run http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...rckZfhrokbZb.2.

I do like full tank for whither which is great for the slow/damage reduction and peeling for healers, but I feel gimped with smashers hitting me for 5k. With the spec above I have 30% aoe damage reduction and a mini damage reduction cooldown which you can use quite often.

Also 15 sec force speed/lower cc break is awesome.

27k hp
32 Def
45 Shield
40 Abs
1200 Exp