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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
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Syvach's Avatar


Syvach
01.05.2013 , 07:11 PM | #5051
Quote: Originally Posted by Samy_Merchi View Post
Just saying, though. Doesn't mean I'm happy about it.
Oh, absolutely. I'm not happy SGR for companions is not in, but neither am I going to cry foul because they "didn't flip the switch" and "it's so easy to do." I'm realistic that this is a ton of work and the more I think about it, the more complicated it gets! As you mention, conflict dialogues could take not only new VA work from the PCs and SGR companions, but also possibly from non-SGR companions!

So when they say "this will take a lot more work than we realized at the time," I absolutely believe them. That's not even taking into account how much coding may (or may not) be required. Especially with the Hero Engine, which is apparently a gigantic coding pain.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I'm not seeing them as the SGRA's I've been waiting for - they're [Flirt]s with world NPCs I'm likely only to ever see once.
Yep, it really isn't. It's still a big thing though. As you point out, their handling so far has been terrible, so to have ANYTHING is a big change and opens up possibilities for more in the future. I see this as more an announcement that "there will be stuff coming" than "here is your SGR stuff!" That's what it seems like to me. "Here is what we can do now, but there will be more in the future. It just takes a lot of work."

As for this part being in a paid expansion, that doesn't bother me. It's fine. It makes sense. It's far easier to put SGR into new stuff that they can build from the ground up. Retrofitting it into old content takes more work. So it's reasonable that they'd start with something easier (Makeb) before moving onto something harder (current companions). There's not much option for giving it for free either. You can't exactly make the SGR NPCs on Makeb free if you can't get to Makeb without paying. It's a stepping stone. They start with this, get SGR into the game, break the glass wall of silence and anything could happen next. Could be more, could be nothing.

But this is a start and it's far better than a week ago.

Lent_San's Avatar


Lent_San
01.05.2013 , 07:39 PM | #5052
Quote: Originally Posted by Syvach View Post
It's a stepping stone. They start with this, get SGR into the game, break the glass wall of silence and anything could happen next. Could be more, could be nothing.
But this is a start and it's far better than a week ago.
So very true.

Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
01.05.2013 , 07:41 PM | #5053
Quote: Originally Posted by Syvach View Post
I see this as more an announcement that "there will be stuff coming" than "here is your SGR stuff!" That's what it seems like to me. "Here is what we can do now, but there will be more in the future. It just takes a lot of work."
I can't believe so many folks are buying into this crap. The only reason we are getting SG Flirts is because it likely actually saved them time and money, less alternate dialogue to record and faster implementation time since they don't have to code in gender checks and additional lines of dialogue. Things are now the same for both gender in the flirt options. This just happens to be why the old "time and money" excuse from pre-launch was a load of bull.

I also can't imagine how on Earth updating existing companions is somehow "like totally super hard". 90% of the needed content already exists right there in the game. Each romance would likely need only a handful of lines rewritten, rerecorded, and reprogrammed. Likely only a couple of the romances would require any significant amount of rework.

If changing a few lines of dialogue is some monumental task on the part of the devs that risks introducing character destroying bugs or extended server downtimes (i can't even fathom why that would be the case) or require rewriting entire sections of game code, content updates are going to be so monumentally slow and rare the game will simply wilt on the vine as you get your yearly content update. How in the world can they add whole new sections of content and gameplay if changing a few lines of dialogue presents such a critical risk? Answer is, it doesn't of course.

So all the new excuses really are, in the end, are more excuses. I bet making brand now Ops and WZ's are "like totally super hard" too, but they don't seem to have any problems adding those to the game. No, this isn't an issue of time, resources, or complexity. Its just a fresh round of dismissal and exclusion.

Lent_San's Avatar


Lent_San
01.05.2013 , 07:48 PM | #5054
Quote: Originally Posted by Nozybidaj View Post
Its just a fresh round of dismissal and exclusion.
I don't buy that, Noz. It's not in line with what's in the State of the Game. It's not in line with what anti people have been told who complained to CS about SGR implementation, namely that BW/EA are supportive of them. So no, I don't buy that, sorry.

Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
01.05.2013 , 07:57 PM | #5055
Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
I don't buy that, Noz. It's not in line with what's in the State of the Game. It's not in line with what anti people have been told who complained to CS about SGR implementation, namely that BW/EA are supportive of them. So no, I don't buy that, sorry.
I've never found tokenism to be particularly indicative sign of a supportive and inclusive agency.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
01.05.2013 , 08:01 PM | #5056
Quote: Originally Posted by Nozybidaj View Post
I can't believe so many folks are buying into this crap. The only reason we are getting SG Flirts is because it likely actually saved them time and money, less alternate dialogue to record and faster implementation time since they don't have to code in gender checks and additional lines of dialogue. Things are now the same for both gender in the flirt options. This just happens to be why the old "time and money" excuse from pre-launch was a load of bull.

I also can't imagine how on Earth updating existing companions is somehow "like totally super hard". 90% of the needed content already exists right there in the game. Each romance would likely need only a handful of lines rewritten, rerecorded, and reprogrammed. Likely only a couple of the romances would require any significant amount of rework.

If changing a few lines of dialogue is some monumental task on the part of the devs that risks introducing character destroying bugs or extended server downtimes (i can't even fathom why that would be the case) or require rewriting entire sections of game code, content updates are going to be so monumentally slow and rare the game will simply wilt on the vine as you get your yearly content update. How in the world can they add whole new sections of content and gameplay if changing a few lines of dialogue presents such a critical risk? Answer is, it doesn't of course.

So all the new excuses really are, in the end, are more excuses. I bet making brand now Ops and WZ's are "like totally super hard" too, but they don't seem to have any problems adding those to the game. No, this isn't an issue of time, resources, or complexity. Its just a fresh round of dismissal and exclusion.
o.O Have the flirt options been shown to be just the same dialogue for all characters to the same NPCs? Or is this just what you're assuming (tho you could be right)?

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
01.05.2013 , 08:18 PM | #5057
Quote: Originally Posted by fabiyun View Post
The problem is that SWTOR is an MMOrpg. If this were a standalone game then indeed they could remove the gender checks, do some VA, and release a patch.
But. This isn't a standalone game. Nor a standalone game with multiplayer options. This is an online game. Live at that.
They can't just go back and change these options. It would likely bug everyone's progress with their companions in the process. The same goes for NPCs. They can't just change those. It'll have different effects for people who've done the quests, are in the middle of the quests and those who have completed it. And these conversations and quests can't just be reset either. And the idea of some item resetting it, is also nearly impossible. It can be coded, but the consequences and bugs as a result cannot be overseen.

The problem with SWTOR is that SGR could've easily been in at launch without much difficulty or high costs. Instead someone made the poor call to not do it. At an executive level maybe they thought like most do here that it would be easy to implement, but are now realising that it's not an easy task, but an incredibly difficult one. They'd be facing possible bugs for almost every quest and conversation. That's an impossible task.

The only thing that can reasonably be done is adding new companions the way HK51 has been added with VA for the earlier planets included. Additional quests can be added on the core planets with NPCs that are available for SGR.

Your game, your character and progress, are on the server. This isn't a standalone game. It's coded differently. It's not something that can be fixed easily.

Additionally, to implement such a patch for the millions of account toons that are the servers, they'd have to take the servers down for days, not just hours. Adding new content, some new code to add new FPs, WZs or Planets already takes 4hrs for a small patch, and 8hrs for a big patch. Now imagine them recoding it all, and making changes to save games. That's a task that'll take days, and sorry folks, just not realistic. I would love to see it. But realistically it's nearly impossible. At this point in time I'd rather see them spend time on some new SGR companions. That can be a content patch done in an 8hr server downtime. Development won't take much longer than redoing the previous companions, and it'd be something new for everyone. Yes it'd be the "SGR companion", whatever. It's something that'd get me through the 50 levels for a toon before I reach the new content that will be inclusive.
I don't believe is so monumentally complicated. I bet one tab of your cargo hold has more information than whatever flags one of your companions has.
Changing the script to companions story arcs could be just like changing the workflow of whatever in a ERP system (probably much less complicated). You add alternative paths, steps, new conditions, etc.
In this case, it'll be only a new path. The "friend" path and the "straight" path will be the same. If someone has their companion's story already in progress, there should be an option to go back to square one. Can't be that difficult, since they dont have an impact your class story, nor or the world.

Quething's Avatar


Quething
01.05.2013 , 08:41 PM | #5058
It's not about changing flags. That's fine for re-rolling. The implication is that they don't want us to have to re-roll. And that is indeed a monumental undertaking, because changing a flag check in a conversation you've already had doesn't do jack spit for you without the ability to go back and have that conversation again. If you've finished the JK story and talked to Kira's Spoiler Spoiler, you're done with her. The game has, currently, a completely linear form of tracking for companion conversations, and there's no way for you to, at that point, access new romance content with her of any stripe, unless that content is locked to only appear at that point. And of course if so, every other Knight would have to level to 50 to s/s romance Kira.

Any method by which PCs could *begin* a new romance at any point in the progression of a given companion's story progression would be an unbelievable headache to code. It would also be the only fair way to implement it. If that's their dilemma I don't blame them in the least for taking a spillion years to get it done. (I do still blame them for not implementing it to begin with, and for their inane gag order, but those are entirely separate issues.)

Agitate, if you like, for them to just rip the flags out and make everyone re-roll. It would be fast, it would be easy, it would be relatively un-error-prone. It would be something that they should be able to roll out next month if they've actually been working on it. But that is not the only way to do it, and it is very likely not the way they intend to do it, based on the way they've conducted themselves with other issues thus far (hood toggles, for example, where they've also ignored a completely easy and obvious shortcut in favor of doing it right the first time). I, on the other hand, am willing at this point to wait for quality. All they need to do is actually manage to tell us that that's what they're doing, for bloody once.

fabiyun's Avatar


fabiyun
01.05.2013 , 09:27 PM | #5059
Quote: Originally Posted by Quething View Post
It's not about changing flags. That's fine for re-rolling. The implication is that they don't want us to have to re-roll. And that is indeed a monumental undertaking, because changing a flag check in a conversation you've already had doesn't do jack spit for you without the ability to go back and have that conversation again. If you've finished the JK story and talked to Kira's Spoiler Spoiler, you're done with her. The game has, currently, a completely linear form of tracking for companion conversations, and there's no way for you to, at that point, access new romance content with her of any stripe, unless that content is locked to only appear at that point. And of course if so, every other Knight would have to level to 50 to s/s romance Kira.

Any method by which PCs could *begin* a new romance at any point in the progression of a given companion's story progression would be an unbelievable headache to code. It would also be the only fair way to implement it. If that's their dilemma I don't blame them in the least for taking a spillion years to get it done. (I do still blame them for not implementing it to begin with, and for their inane gag order, but those are entirely separate issues.)

Agitate, if you like, for them to just rip the flags out and make everyone re-roll. It would be fast, it would be easy, it would be relatively un-error-prone. It would be something that they should be able to roll out next month if they've actually been working on it. But that is not the only way to do it, and it is very likely not the way they intend to do it, based on the way they've conducted themselves with other issues thus far (hood toggles, for example, where they've also ignored a completely easy and obvious shortcut in favor of doing it right the first time). I, on the other hand, am willing at this point to wait for quality. All they need to do is actually manage to tell us that that's what they're doing, for bloody once.
My gut tells me that they haven't decided yet. They've had other priorities. From what was written, they probably had a talk about this and how it could be done, but not followed up on a course of action yet other than not making the same mistake for Makeb. F2P must have been a big undertaking, that probably took longer than we realise, they could have started not long after game launch. And it's not without its bugs. There's plenty of posts of people who are having problems because of this move. And they didn't even have to code in different triggers and flags for any of the past story content.

Indeed, for new toons it wouldn't be hard to have this content, the problem lies with all the toons that are already there. And the bugs that are likely to occur when they make changes that would be meant for reflagging content that's already been progressed past. That's the major difference between new content added, of any kind, and changing existing content, that you're already past. Again, it's not a single player game stored on your hdd that can be patched (if you've ever looked at DA game files you'll also notice it's not just a single file with progression info, but a whole bunch of XMLs and data files). This is an even more complex engine on a server. It's constantly communicating between the server and your pc, we don't know how this interaction goes. We don't know what is stored in your save files on the server and pc and what isn't and how it all interacts. But clearly it's complicated. Just look at how Character Transfer has caused them headaches. It's not as easy as copying some files over from one server to another. Similarly, just pasting in some code, removing some code, will do nothing but break the game.

Personally I don't like to wait for a change of existing companions that could take years. I'd rather see new companions within a year. One choice is better than a long term choice that isn't likely to be prioritised because of the size of the undertaking. I don't really care for NPCs of the first levels, it'd be nice to see it, but I can live without it. For a single player game, this'd just be a patch with some changes, fixes and new resource files. For a live game it's far more complex than that. And if you look at DLCs for example, they're always added in a way that doesn't affect past content. Like the notice board in DA2. Changes they made to existing content in patches also caused bugs, like other quests not triggering, completing or bugs in rewards for existing characters.

While I think they need to do a lot more than adding some SGR NPCs to Makeb, I do understand that this won't be an easy task. And I think we need to be prepared and realistic that whatever will come, isn't likely to be a fix for all companions and NPCs for your existing characters. But then again, I also don't know how exactly this game and server work, so I can be completely off.
The very least they need to do is make sure that some companion SGR will be available for the levels 1 to 50. It takes a long time to get to Makeb. Moreover Makeb is not class story, there's no reason for me to try all classes without SGR to get to the same NPCs in Makeb. I'm interested in all class stories, but I'm not even completing my SI now because the overabundance of OGR and a complete lack of SGR takes the fun out of the game for me.
"..the worst kind of DARTH one can dig up!"

Lent_San's Avatar


Lent_San
01.05.2013 , 10:05 PM | #5060
Quote: Originally Posted by fabiyun View Post
The very least they need to do is make sure that some companion SGR will be available for the levels 1 to 50. It takes a long time to get to Makeb. Moreover Makeb is not class story, there's no reason for me to try all classes without SGR to get to the same NPCs in Makeb. I'm interested in all class stories, but I'm not even completing my SI now because the overabundance of OGR and a complete lack of SGR takes the fun out of the game for me.
I feel the same way, absolutely. I've finally started to play a male smuggler, to see what it feels like, and in what felt like five minutes into the game I already had to fend off the first advances made by female NPCs towards my guy.

I wouldn't even mind so much if I knew there'd be SGR flirts somewhere down the line as well, but to know there aren't ANY is just seriously detracting from the game playing experience. It just feels fake, like a puzzle with half of the pieces missing.

Without SGR with companions, new ones or old ones in the 1-50 range, I cannot see myself sticking with this game for very long. Not with all the OGR in it that I'm not gonna be playing, or that may be keeping me from playing, after all.