Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Jugg tank PvE endgame gear question

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Jugg tank PvE endgame gear question

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
01.04.2013 , 06:13 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
The goal of tanking is to control the fight and (more importantly) to control where incoming damage is going.

We tanks do this using threat to make the mob attack us, facing the mob away from the group so it doesn't cleave them and using mitigation to bring that damage down to a sustainable healing leave. That's a very very basic rundown on tanking.

Now assuming a boss as a 5k base damage cleave. Now it can go 2 ways. The conventional option: You stand and take it, the healer has to heal ~2.5k if you don't shield or defend it. Or your option: You Intercede a DPS and heal 2.4k. Then you take 2.5k and the DPS takes ~4k. Thats assuming you only catch 1 DPS in the cleave. Now thats 2.4k less healing you require, but its ~4k healing that the DPS now requires. That's a total of 4.1k healing required instead of 2.5k.

Now I'm not saying that's always the case. I'm sure if you got really good at it and knew the fights you could avoid accidentally cleaving your team mates but you risk actually working AGAINST the goal of being a tank by doing that. Plus you're making it harder for yourself to hold threat early on for slightly better threat management later on when you can just gain more benefit from taunting.
This.

Unfortunately Guardian Leap rarely comes into play in most ops content. There are a couple times where you can help at the start of a fight if you're the off tank, like against the Writhing Horror or Kephess, to help make sure the main tank doesn't lose aggro to good DPS before its your turn to taunt the boss off of him.

I've also thought about (as a Jugg DPS) using it on the tank that picks up 2 regulators at the end of the yellow phase in the Operator 9 fight, since I know they normally don't work based on threat but only on taunts, but I'm afraid I'd cause a wipe and haven't done so yet, any idea if that would be a safe spot to leap the tank to help him out?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
01.04.2013 , 10:44 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
I've also thought about (as a Jugg DPS) using it on the tank that picks up 2 regulators at the end of the yellow phase in the Operator 9 fight, since I know they normally don't work based on threat but only on taunts, but I'm afraid I'd cause a wipe and haven't done so yet, any idea if that would be a safe spot to leap the tank to help him out?
You're better off just having your second tank do his job. :-) Leaping to the main tank is *probably* not going to cause a wipe, but if he's holding both Regulators, it's likely that his AoE taunt is down from picking them up while his single target taunt is down from picking up the boss. Thus, it's an extremely risky move, since there's no way to recover if things go wrong.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
01.04.2013 , 11:31 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Proper itemization prevents most tanks from breaking 26k health (my shadow barely breaks 25k with the 3% Endurance talent) and makes it so that you're going to hit 30/ 50/ 50 on Guardians and Shadows with out breaking a sweat. My shadow's currently at 30/50/59 and is still in mostly BH/ Campaign gear (my guardian friend is at like 25/ 55/ 50). Also, Enure for Guardians (30% more Health) is a CD that's designed to give the healers more time to heal you during periods of time when the boss is doing a ****ton of damage.



That all sounds like a terrible way to play a Guardian/ Jugg given that you're going to throw the boss out of position and that the the PvE 2 and 4 piece bonuses vastly outweigh 10% extra damage and a 10% heal.


General Rule of Thumb when it comes to Tank's Health Pools is 3 unmitigated hits. Currently the hardest I ever get hit is around 7.8k damage (not counting flukes during Operator IX), so having 24k health (closer to 25k) is golden for me. Anything more is just making me a resource sponge.
My calculation is that a fully 63 optimized geared mitigation favoring guardian tank would have the 30/50/50 with about 28k HP, correct me if wrong.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.04.2013 , 11:52 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
My calculation is that a fully 63 optimized geared mitigation favoring guardian tank would have the 30/50/50 with about 28k HP, correct me if wrong.
It depends on how you define "optimized". I would define 28k hp as a bit high and 30% defense as a bit low. My calcs put a fully optimized Guardian at about 33.5/50.5/51% with 25k hp (Guardian armoring and hilt, unlettered mods, high shield augs, and 2 passive def PvP relics).
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
01.04.2013 , 01:36 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It depends on how you define "optimized". I would define 28k hp as a bit high and 30% defense as a bit low. My calcs put a fully optimized Guardian at about 33.5/50.5/51% with 25k hp (Guardian armoring and hilt, unlettered mods, high shield augs, and 2 passive def PvP relics).
25k HP can be low for some 8 man and many 16 man late game raids, but I trust your calculations with the mitigation. Is 25k without stims buffs? Because I was counting those.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.04.2013 , 01:51 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
Because I was counting those.
I was counting them as well. 25k has been more than enough for my Shadow tank to rofl through anything and everything I've ever run. It would stand to reason the same is true for a Guardian.

I was actually surprised that the Guardian's hp was that low: my Shadow manages 25k hp with unlettered mods, high shield enhs, Resolve (low end, high primary) armorings and hilt, and power crystals. The only Endurance stacking taking place is on my Shield proc relic. The Guardian was using the same except for pure Guardian hilt and armorings (12 higher Endurance on 14 pieces), Endurance crystals (41 higher Endurance on 2 pieces), 2 PvP passive relics (44 Endurance twice rather than 64 and 95), which seemed kind of strange. Based off of that, the Guardian should have had ~179 more Endurance than the Shadow rather than the ~30 AMR says. I can only guess that Shadow's Training (the additional Endurance passive skill that Shadow's get) and Mental Fortitude provide ~150 Endurance to make up the difference.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Tipico's Avatar


Tipico
01.04.2013 , 08:19 PM | #27
does anyone have a BIS askmrrobot link? im trying figure out exactly what i need to focus on, on my guardian.

ive been playing around with the WH relics vs the dread guard proc absorb one. i can't figure out which one i like more :/

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.04.2013 , 08:39 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Tipico View Post
does anyone have a BIS askmrrobot link?
When I think of Guardian BiS, this is what I'm talking about (I think that should work but it might not since it's a generic Guardian rather than a named one).

Quote:
ive been playing around with the WH relics vs the dread guard proc absorb one. i can't figure out which one i like more :/
For Guardians, I would use the a passive Defense PvP relic rather than the proc abs relic mainly because Defense is way more valuable for a Guardian than Absorb is. Guardians just don't have the shield or absorb rating to make stacking them particularly valuable.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
01.05.2013 , 12:46 PM | #29
Kitru, that profile you linked of a BIS Guardian is nice in theory, but there is no high shield/absorb enhancement available on any stock dread guard gear, and no high strength/absorption mod either, so you have to get lucky with a Hazmat drop and then hope someone on your server learns it (hasn't happened yet on my sever).

Since I only have Str/Def mods and Shield/Def enhancements to work with, I'm thinking of using Absorb augments to make up for what I"m lacking there (I'm sticking with the Black Hole high shield/absorb implants for now, and got lucky with a high shield/absorb Hazmat earpiece drop). Also, I play a hybrid spec, with the current stat budget available, what sort of numbers do you think I should aim for?

Doing the math for myself, with the mods/enhancements and earpiece/implants available to me, I'll be at 804 defense, 174 absorb and 594 shield. If I go straight absorb augments for all my gear from there on, that'd put me at 426 absorb. Would those be good numbers to shoot for in the hybrid spec? Or should I maybe drop a couple of absorb augments for even more defense, since my shield will be lower in hybrid spec?

tatatan's Avatar


tatatan
01.05.2013 , 04:48 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
The goal of tanking is to control the fight and (more importantly) to control where incoming damage is going.

We tanks do this using threat to make the mob attack us, facing the mob away from the group so it doesn't cleave them and using mitigation to bring that damage down to a sustainable healing leave. That's a very very basic rundown on tanking.
Amen to this - /sign
Quote:
Now assuming a boss as a 5k base damage cleave. Now it can go 2 ways. The conventional option: You stand and take it, the healer has to heal ~2.5k if you don't shield or defend it. Or your option: You Intercede a DPS and heal 2.4k. Then you take 2.5k and the DPS takes ~4k. Thats assuming you only catch 1 DPS in the cleave. Now thats 2.4k less healing you require, but its ~4k healing that the DPS now requires. That's a total of 4.1k healing required instead of 2.5k.
I agree, but this all depends on mob mechanics, single, aoe, ranged, close combat, jumping .. and i play 'along' with this.

Quote:
Now I'm not saying that's always the case. I'm sure if you got really good at it and knew the fights you could avoid accidentally cleaving your team mates but you risk actually working AGAINST the goal of being a tank by doing that. Plus you're making it harder for yourself to hold threat early on for slightly better threat management later on when you can just gain more benefit from taunting.
I understand what you say.
1. i'm using this mechanics where it situation allows - like e.g. good geared sniper was taking agro off me, we fought directive 7 robot, i jumped to him couple of times and back - problem solved

have a look on this video on the move mechanic, it is really fast (just some ranged generic mob)
30 sec video - youtube

2. i'm not using this as some dogma, another example - if there is marauder having same problem - with taking agro off me - he just fight beside me, right - so i intercede to him, i move nowhere, help him with it, i selfheal in process

As seen in video (and i'm lagging a bit because of frapsing) it is fingersnap fast and i just use it - if i can, i cant use it everywhere all the time (the combo friendly leap, enemy leap) but friendly leap, i use always - as there is lots of melee classes in game lately (and they stand beside me anyway).
It works for me.
As i said - i dont do operations, as i am not guilded - and as Kitru smartly noted, i'm 'overgeared' for the content i do - yes, but the gear didn't fall from heaven on me, i did this with rakata too. I'm happy if me and my team completes FP, my friend Healer is happy with me and this is what matters to me.
I do more PvP than PvE and so i'm used to this mechanics (friendly leaps), managing taunts on multiple targets etc. I get sometimes (not often, but do) 100k medals in Pug Warzones for healing (if they are long enough), yes - enrage - and yes, intercede. So i use it in PvE too (intercede).
I use it wisely though, i'm not hopping like crazy grasshopper all over the map.
It is a tool and used properly, it helps me do my job.
Enough said, happy tanking @ all.